“I listen to some of you guys out there, hyper-reformed boys, you’re concerned if you preach the gospel to the wrong person, the wrong person might get saved. So you don’t want to preach it too good, ‘well wait a minute, I don’t think you should’ve been getting saved, I’m not sure you’re in the group.’ What do you mean in the group! If you breathe you’re in the group! If you have ears to hear you’re in the group! And if you choose not to respond it’s your own fault, not God’s.”
- Alistair Begg
During my days at seminary, I spoke with one of my mentors, Dr. Roy Fish, about the differences between Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism. During our conversation, I blurted out, “Dr. Fish, I’m certain I detest hyper-Calvinism even more than you do!” As Dr. Tom Ascol has rightly noted, “The error of hyper-Calvinism can only emerge where true Calvinism has taken root. It is a perverting error. It distorts that which is good and true. It is a parasite which sucks the life out of its host.”
It is unfortunate, but this pejorative label is often attached to Calvinists who are “Five-Point Calvinists” and affirm the doctrines of unconditional election and particular redemption. It is also often applied to those who hold to supralapsarianism. Supralapsarianism is the view that God, contemplating humanity as yet unfallen, chose some as recipients of His grace while rejecting others. It teaches the divine decree of election logically preceded the decrees to create and permit the Fall. In other words, damnation is first an act of divine sovereignty and secondly an act of divine justice. While this is a form of High Calvinism, it is not necessarily hyper-Calvinism (although hyper-Calvinists are always supralapsarians*).
Those holding to the doctrines of unconditional election, particular redemption, and supralapsarianism are solidly within the boundaries of orthodox Reformed theology and cannot be described accurately as hyper-Calvinists. Even those who, like John Piper, refer to themselves as “Seven-Point Calvinists” cannot be described accurately as hyper-Calvinists. Dr. Piper, as did Calvin, affirms double-predestination. Double predestination holds that God not only chooses whom He will save, but also in the same manner determines whom He will not save. There are many Calvinists (Infralapsarians such as myself) who reject this point, believing that while God chooses the elect, those who remain unrepentant do so entirely as a matter of their own choosing. Dr. Piper claims the “seventh point” of Calvinism is that “God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world.” These two points neither exceed the boundaries of orthodox Calvinism, nor constitute hyper-Calvinism.
“Hyper” comes from the Greek huper, meaning “excessive or excessively; over, beyond.” A hyper-Calvinist is one, therefore, who exceeds orthodox Calvinism and goes over and beyond the boundaries of what Calvinism affirms. Hyper-Calvinism goes too far in emphasizing particular aspects of the Divine character, and does so at the expense of others. It over-emphasizes God’s sovereignty while de-emphasizing His love, and sets divine sovereignty against human responsibility. Because of its de-emphasis on divine love and denial of human responsibility, hyper-Calvinism militates against evangelism and the offer of the gospel to all people in all places.
So, what exactly constitutes hyper-Calvinistic theology? The following beliefs, either in part or in whole, have generally characterized that system and that spirit which have exceeded Calvinism:
- God is the author of sin and evil
- Human beings have absolutely no will whatsoever
- Individuals are not responsible for their own decisions and actions
- Justification occurs in eternity, not in time
- God does not command all people to repent of sin
- Not everyone is required to believe upon Christ Jesus for salvation
- God creates unbelief in the hearts of the non-elect
- Assurance of election must be sought prior to repentance and faith
- Election is evident simply by a profession of faith, regardless of sanctification (antinomianism)
- Saving faith is equivalent to believing predestination (only “Calvinists” are Christians)
- Limited atonement must be believed in order to hear the gospel and be saved
- Salvation is not connected with the “visible” Church**
- Scripture is to be interpreted only by individuals, not by the Church**
- Evangelism is unnecessary, or even wrong
- The sacraments are not a means of grace, but rather obstacles to salvation by faith alone**
- God has no love whatsoever for humanity in His providence (common grace)
When one or more of these tenets is held, hyper-Calvinism may very well have taken root. If you’ve found these beliefs developing in your life, my prayer is that they may be weeded out by the grace of God.
—————–
*The two major Calvinistic views of the divine decrees in relation to redemption/reprobation are supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism. Infralapsarianism (sometimes called “sublapsarianism”) believes the divine decree to permit the Fall logically preceded the decree of election. In other words, God contemplated all of humanity in relation to the Fall and chose the elect for salvation through Jesus Christ while determining to pass over the non-elect and leaving them to their own sinful desires and choices.
**These points do not necessarily constitute hyper-Calvinism, though they are often found among those advocating the system.
FOR FURTHER READING (Free Online Sources):
A Primer on Hyper-Calvinism by Phillip R. Johnson
All House and No Doors by C. Matthew McMahon
The Emergence of Hyper-Calvinism by Peter Toon
“I listen to some of you guys out there, hyper-reformed boys, you’re concerned if you preach the gospel to the wrong person, the wrong person might get saved. So you don’t want to preach it too good, ‘well wait a minute, I don’t think you should’ve been getting saved, I’m not sure you’re in the group.’ What do you mean in the group! If you breathe you’re in the group! If you have ears to hear you’re in the group! And if you choose not to respond it’s your own fault, not God’s.”
christianclarityreview
April 10, 2010 at 9:27 am
two things:
1. actually name anyone who is ‘withholding the gospel’ from any specific group of individual. A name please, not an inference by supposed logic.
There are none.
So you have lied. Willfully Lied, not ‘made a mistake’ –by YOUR logic and outlook on life of free will. In your outlook, everything you do is on purpose.
2. the arminian gospel is not the true gospel and is in fact the unforgivable sin: you have implied that God and Satan have the same speech –that Christ actually did cast out demons by the prince of demons. In Truth it was Him as Word of God as completely distinct from human language that cast them out. The pharisees, who did not have the Word of God, but worshiped their own speech and the limitations of it and the logical conclusions of its powerlessness had no where to go in their own logic and best honesty about speech itself but to say Christ had a demon in order to be more powerful than their own speech. Just like you. Note he doesn’t say they are good people with bad theology:
John 8:43-48 Why do ye not know my speech? Because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of the devil, as your father, and ye desire to do the lusts of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks falsehood, he speaks of what is his own; for he is a liar and its father: and because I speak the truth, ye do not believe me. Which of you convinces me of sin? If I speak truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God hears the words of God: therefore ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. The Jews answered and said to him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan and hast a demon?
And equating the Word of God with the speech of demons and specifically the same powerless quality of demonic speech is the unforgivable sin:
Mar 3:21 And his relatives having heard of it went out to lay hold on him, for they said, He is out of his mind.
Mark 3:22-30 And the scribes who had come down from Jerusalem said, He has Beelzebub, and, By the prince of the demons he casts out demons. And having called them to him , he said to them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom has become divided against itself, that kingdom cannot subsist. And if a house has become divided against itself, that house cannot subsist. And if Satan rise up against himself, and is divided, he cannot subsist, but has an end.
But no one can, having entered into his house, plunder the goods of the strong man unless he first bind the strong man , and then he will plunder his house. Verily I say unto you, that all sins shall be forgiven to the sons of men, and all the injurious speeches with which they may speak injuriously; but whosoever shall speak injuriously against the Holy Spirit, to eternity has no forgiveness; but lies under the guilt of an everlasting sin; –because they said, He has an unclean spirit.
The people of this world would never say you were out of your mind, you lying dog. They love you because you love their speech and the lies of it. You give people a false gospel by the means of implying that God and Satan have the same speech and that speech just happens to be powerless, therefore logically permitting your further lie of free will and mindset of scarcity among those who are deceived by you. You give them false prayers in a speech God won’t hear, for things they should not even be desiring and then laugh at the result, and say whoever isn’t copying your behavior is ‘hyper’ ..something and/or a reprobate.
You didn’t get this old in those lies and your Scripture twisting and never hear the true gospel. So while new birth in Jesus Christ is going on around you, it passed you by and so completely are you deceived you can fake it that you go about lying about true Christians, adding to your sin. You may have an army out there simply repeating what your lies in the speech of Satan, but it won’t save you in eternity.
You should preach louder so that when God wakes up the people, they will know exactly who was lying to them and murdering them by the means of your doctrines; indeed, who bragged about it and said whoever wasn’t saying the same thing was a wolf in sheeps clothing. That way, you can be easily seen as a hero of murderers and the enemy of God and man.
By all means, add my website to your hit list, you lying dog. You should not give the impression someone is slipping around behind everyone’s back saying wild things that a fallen human being can’t understand: God through me is saying it right here in the open to your eyes. Pass it on. That way, you and all your lying buddies won’t have to ask again what Jesus was going to do with that cord he was making. Your making a living off the household of faith in Jesus Christ is over. Your good name is over. Your status in society is over:
John 2:14-16 And he found in the temple the sellers of oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting; and, having made a scourge of cords, he cast them all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the change of the money-changers, and overturned the tables, and said to the sellers of doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise.
Matthew 21:12,13 And Jesus entered into the temple of God , and cast out all that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those that sold the doves. And he says to them, It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer, but *ye* have made it a den of robbers.
timothy
In the Name of Jesus Christ, Amen
Dr. James Galyon
April 10, 2010 at 10:02 am
Timothy,
Thanks for dropping by 2WC and demonstrating what the spirit of hyper-Calvinism looks like. It is my hope that you come to appreciate the grace of God in all its fulness.
Pablo
April 12, 2010 at 11:59 am
Wow. This was a much more gracious response than I was thinking as I read the first comment.
Gordan Runyan
April 10, 2010 at 9:59 am
I think most Supras bristle at the term “double predestination.” It’s more a perjorative than it is an actual belief, right? Maybe I’m wrong on that, but my impression was that even Supras would stress that the opposite of election unto glory is not election unto damnation, but rather God leaving a sinner to his own devices. The two kinds of choosing there are not symmetrical.
Or maybe all the dudes I thought were Supra are really something else. Huh.
Dr. James Galyon
April 10, 2010 at 10:23 am
Gordan,
Thanks. Edited my post a bit as a result of your comments. I’m not sure if most Supras would bristle at the term ‘double predestination,’ nor do I think it is necessarily a pejorative term. Supralapsarianism places the following divine decrees in this order:
1) Election / reprobation
2) Creation
3) The Fall
4) Redemption through Christ Jesus
Whereas Infralapsarianism views God as being “passive” in reprobation, leaving the non-elect entirely to their own desires, Supralapsarianism views God making an “active” determination in choosing the non-elect for damnation. The divine choice is not separated from His justice. The non-elect receive condemnation as a result of their own sin and rebellion. Hope that helps.
Bob Hadley
July 7, 2011 at 11:30 pm
Curious… how can God be “passive” in reprobation? That is effect makes Him active… because failing to choose or even deciding not to choose is a choice, which is active. >
Dr. James Galyon
July 21, 2011 at 9:18 pm
God doesn’t fail to choose, rather, He permits individuals to go their own way. They are the ones who are active in their own sin, rebellion, unbelief, etc. God isn’t “active” in that process, that is, He doesn’t create unbelief or force people to sin. He lets them have their own way.
Barry Wallace
April 10, 2010 at 10:19 am
That’s a helpful overview of hyper-Calvinism, James. Thanks.
I suppose the whole lapsarian debate is over my head. If God exists outside of time, can any of his decrees meaningfully be said to occur in some sort of logical order? Don’t you have to presuppose time in order to postulate a logical order? And even if that’s not the case, is there any biblical basis for holding one position over the other? Both positions seem somewhat speculative to me, but then again, it’s probably all just over my head.
Dr. James Galyon
April 10, 2010 at 10:33 am
Barry:
I’ve often told others that the whole issue of Supralapsarianism/Infralapsarianism is essentially a meaningless debate. I don’t spin my wheels too much on the topic because it really has to do with one’s logical preference and speculation rather than biblical revelation, IMO. In the past 18 years, I think I’ve discussed the matter for an approximate total of 15 minutes. Honestly. I’ve spent much, much, much more time discussing the reality of predestination/election – which is clearly revealed in Scripture. On that, both sides agree, and rightly so. Soli Deo Gloria!
Hone Phillips
April 13, 2010 at 8:09 pm
Perhaps it might be a help, Barry, to think of the whole debate as being a way for us to understand a little more clearly how God uses logic. We acknowledge it is flawed by our being mired in time – but that should not prevent us from trying to increase our grasp of what the Bible teaches. The strength of the Superlapsarian position is it shows how God’s decree of election (and reprobation) are not dependent on our actions. The strength of the Infralapsarian position is it allows us to show more clearly how God’s justice operates. Both positions are flawed as you rightly pointed out.
We are, however, trying to think analogically – the only way we can truly conceive of any aspect of God’s nature. In the same way as we might look at the way husbands and wives respond in love to one another to understand a little more clearly how Christ and the Church interact (or at least ought to – we fail too much for it to be accurate) so the debate between super – and infra- tries to help us know something of God’s sovereignty more clearly.
Daniel Chew
April 10, 2010 at 11:29 am
Hi James,
I was directed here from Turretinfan’s blog. Thanks for the informative summary. I very much appreciate it that you do not lump Supralapsarians and other High Calvinists as “hyper-Calvinists”.
Dr. James Galyon
April 10, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Daniel:
Thanks for dropping by 2WC. I think it is important for people to realize there is a stark difference between High Calvinism and hyper-Calvinism. Hope you’ll visit here often.
Charles Page
April 10, 2010 at 3:29 pm
Who else other than Wade Burelson (eternal justification) is a hyper-Calvinist?
Dr. James Galyon
April 10, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Charles,
Examples of modern hyper-Calvinists include Marc Carpenter, Chris Duncan, and Christopher Adams. Carpenter includes the following individuals in his “Heterodoxy Hall of Shame”: Louis Berkhof, Loraine Boettner, Horatius Bonar, Thomas Boston, John Calvin, Thomas Chalmers, Gordon Clark, A.A. Hodge, Charles Hodge, Herman Hoeksema, J. Gresham Machen, Jonathan Edwards, John Murray, John Owen, J. I. Packer, A.W. Pink, John Reisinger, C. H. Spurgeon, Joel Beeke, Jerry Bridges, John Brown, John Bunyan, Martin Luther, Robert L. Dabney, W.G.T. Shedd, Matthew Henry, Thomas Aquinas, William Perkins, Thomas Hooker, William Ames, Richard Sibbes, Joseph Alleine, John Piper, Ernest Reisinger, Tom Ascol, Roger Nicole, Robert Reymond, R.C. Sproul, Andrew Fuller, Stephen Charnock, Iain Murray, A.W. Tozer, Cornelius Van Til, Thomas Watson, James White, George Whitefield, D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones, and J. C. Ryle. When you castigate the Reformers, the Puritans, the giants of the Great Awakening, and the Reformed stalwarts, something is amiss.
Tony Byrne
April 11, 2010 at 3:09 am
Charles,
If Dr. Galyon agrees with his three sources [Toon, Johnson and McMahon], he would at least have to say that Hussey, Skepp, Gill, Hoeksema and Engelsma are in the Hyper-Calvinist camp. Toon doesn’t mention the Hoeksemians because he is dealing with classic Hyper-Calvinism in his work, not the modern forms.
Daniel Chew
April 11, 2010 at 10:05 pm
@Charles:
you should see the nest of hyper-Calvinists at P-Net (http://www.predestinarian.net). Don’t expect Byrne and his fellow Neo-Amyraldians (Ponterites) to address them. They would rather go after orthodox Christians such as James White and Robert Reymond and slander them with the label “hyper-Calvinist” than to face off with the true hyper-Calvinists.
Dr. James Galyon
April 12, 2010 at 5:56 am
Daniel:
I’m pretty generous with what I permit in the comment section, but please pull back just a bit. I encourage you to point out why you believe James White and Robert Reymond aren’t hyper-Calvinists, such as those found over at P-Net. And yes, that site is the definition of hyper-Calvinism.
Daniel Chew
April 12, 2010 at 8:17 am
James:
both Robert Reymond and James White would deny all of these points of hyper-Calvinism. Byrne faults them because they refuse to say that God desires the salvation of the reprobates, something which is not taught in Scripture. God desires the salvation of the world qua men, but not the reprobates per se.
Dr. James Galyon
April 12, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Daniel:
Thanks for seeking to engage the issue. I’ve heard Tony’s points about why he places Reymond and White in the hyper camp. Perhaps Mr. Byrne will drop back by and discuss the issue with us.
Tony Byrne
April 15, 2010 at 4:41 am
Hi Dr. Galyon,
What is interesting, and something Chew doesn’t seem to yet know, is that White is saying that God desires the salvation of all men, in some sort of inactive sense, even according to David Hewitt [a friend of White's]. There are at least three concerns I have about this:
1) How can White’s recent statements that God desires the salvation of all men be reconciled with what he said to Jason from the UK, wherein he explicitly denied God’s desire for the salvation of all men?
2) what are his biblical proofs for the idea that God desires the salvation of all men, especially since he is arguing against all those used by other Calvinists themselves? For instance, in his recent debate with Mike Brown, Brown asked:
James White responded (See minute 29:48-30:04):
In complete contrast, look at what Samuel Waldron [a Reformed Baptist] says about John 5:34 in his exposition on the free offer and the 1689 LBC:
Daniel Chew
April 17, 2010 at 2:29 am
Hi Tony,
I have critiqued Dr. Gonzales’ posts on the issue in my last reply to you in order to demolish your position. That said, we do not go around looking for people to label “Amyraldians” as how you do “hyper-Calvinists”; we are not one-trick ponies. Until I decide to write an academic paper on this topic, I don’t have your amount of time to address the work of every single person who defends the WMO.
TurretinFan
April 17, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Tony:
Let me ask you the same question I’ve asked you elsewhere and you’ve elsewhere failed to answer: What, in your theology, is the relation between “God’s desire for the salvation of all men” or the “universal saving will of God” (as you sometimes call it) and God’s two wills: his secret will and his revealed will?
- TurretinFan
Tony Byrne
April 20, 2010 at 10:49 am
You should know what I believe, T-Fan. According to White [and you], I am a “squeamish Calvinist,” a “sub-Calvinist,” “mainly Amyraldian,” a “quasi-Amyraldian,” a “neo-Amyraldian,” but “not actually or technically a four pointer,” who is “intent upon attacking Calvinism.” In summary, according to White:
Surely you should believe White, for he said:
If those descriptions don’t make sense to you, then join the club. It doesn’t matter that I report that I am not saying anything more or less on the subject of the will of God than Augustine, Prosper, John Preston, John Arrowsmith, John Howe (2, 3, 4), R. L. Dabney, John Murray, John Frame and Robert Gonzales. It doesn’t matter that Robert Gonzales recommended my blog as a place to go in order to get a grasp on Calvinistic teaching on God’s will. It doesn’t matter that I agree with Louis Berkhof’s words here:
If you understand Arminianism, then, according to White, you already know what I believe, since I “insist upon the same kind of error that the Arminians make.”
Are you saying that you don’t believe White is right about this? If not, you should say so, and only then ask me about what I really believe. Just ignore my 184 blog posts on God’s will. That, apparently, isn’t sufficient, and neither is David Ponter’s many posts by Calvinists on his blog dealing with the same topic. Nevermind all of this, since White says that “one of Byrne’s biggest problems” is that “he just doesn’t allow for context for anybody, Robert Reymond, myself, or anybody else for that matter.”
Anyway, it doesn’t matter what I believe. What matters in this post by Galyon on hyper-Calvinism are the sources I posted on the nature of Hyper-Calvinism by various Calvinistic scholars. Stay on topic and deal with those, instead of trying to make me the topic and issue. Express your differences with Iain Murray, John Murray, Sam Waldron, Walter Chantry, Erroll Hulse, Al Martin on the free offer of the gospel. I’m reporting what they have said, but you know me. I “don’t allow context for anybody.”
Also, as I tried to express to you on Lumpkins blog, I am not interested in interaction with an unaccountable anonymous blogger, since I agree with Al Mohler:
Even one of your own buddies and White’s associates [Steve Camp] once said to a friend of mine:
[Comment deleted by site owner] If you want, give me a call by phone in your abundant spare time and we can talk about my views on the will of God. If you’re unwilling to disclose your name, then I don’t see why I should interact with you.
Meanwhile, here is a question for you:
Do you think that Daniel Chew is rightly representing White’s view on the revealed will of God and the salvation of all men?
Daniel Chew
April 21, 2010 at 9:41 am
@Tony:
Yes, we know your quote-mining approach all too well, so your umm… “184 posts on God’s will” and others are rather suspect IMO.
I do not know whether my approach would be embraced by Dr. White. What I DID say was that there is “no contradictions” betwwen White and Farnon and me. We may have differences, but differences are not contradictions.
Oh yes, you did fail to answer T-fan’s question.
Tony Byrne
April 15, 2010 at 3:45 am
1) Actually, I have conversed with Brandon Kraft long ago, and I also interacted with many of his like-minded friends long ago who were on Paltalk denying God’s universal love, common grace, the well-meant offer and duty-faith. Though I was civil in their room, the last time I was in their room I was kicked out for defending the responsibility of all men to evangelically believe the gospel [duty-faith]. I was confronting their hyper-Calvinism before Daniel Chew even knew about them. This was probably around 2003 or 04, when I first started to intensively studying hyper-Calvinism. Chew is very young, so he may have still been in high school at that time.
2) What is odd is that Chew is bothered by their eternal justification views, when Chew himself is attending a Hoeksemian church. Hoeksema himself taught eternal justification. Will he then “address” the PRC error? Moreover, William Twisse also taught eternal justification as well [see Hans Boersma's doctoral dissertation done at the Univ. of Utrect entitled A Hot Pepper Corn: Richard Baxter's Doctrine of Justification in Its Seventeenth-Century Context of Controversy (Vancouver, B. C.: Regent, 2004), 80-88.]. Is Chew prepared to call Twisse, the first Prolocutor of the Westminster Assembly, a hyper-Calvinist? Or how about Abraham Kuyper ["Justification from Eternity," in The Work of the Holy Spirit, trans. Henri De Vries (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1900), 367-371]?
3) While I think Chew is correct to say that Robert Reymond denies that God desires the salvation of all men in the revealed will, Chew is incorrect to say that White “refuses to say that God desires the salvation” of all men. What Chew and Mark Farnon [aka Tartanarmy] don’t seem to know, yet, is that White has virtually thrown them under the bus. White is now saying that there is a sense in which God desires the salvation of all men. The problem is that White also 1) has not retracted his stated agreement with Reymond and 2) continues to hack away at every proof text Calvinists, such as John Murray, have used to argue for God’s universal saving will. Chew is consistently in the Reymond position, and thus explicitly says that it is unbiblical to say that God desires the salvation of all men.
4) Chew says that “God desires the salvation of the world qua men,” but that’s incoherent Hoeksemianism. It seems like saying that God desires the salvation of the species of all men, but not all men. It sounds Platonic, like God desires to save the form of thing called humanity, but not all the particulars [i.e. the non-elect] that make up that class. This seems why he is saying “not the reprobates per se.” Also, it is potentially misleading to simply ascribe to the John Murray position that God desires the salvation of the “reprobate” as reprobate. Hence they clarify as follows:
“Still further, it is necessary to point out that such “desire” on the part of God for the salvation of all must never be conceived of as desire to such an end apart from the means to that end. It is not desire of their salvation irrespective of repentance and faith. Such would be inconceivable. For it would mean, as Calvin says, “to renounce the difference between good and evil.” If it is proper to say that God desires the salvation of the reprobate, then he desires such by their repentance. And so it amounts to the same thing to say “God desires their salvation” as to say “He desires their repentance.” This is the same as saying that he desires them to comply with the indispensable conditions of salvation. It would be impossible to say the one without implying the other.”
Daniel Chew
April 17, 2010 at 2:02 am
1) Actually, Tony, you would do well to stop trying to criticize me based on my age (a red herring). I wasn’t “in high school” in 2003/04, but that’s irrelevant.
I see that you have a run-in with the P-Net hyper-Cals though.
2) I am NOT attending a Hoesekmian church. While my church has sister relations with the PRCA, we are not PRCA and do not necessarily follow everything that the PRCA teaches. As a church, we have no official stand on things like the WMO, “common grace”, EJ etc, though of course the pastors and members have their own stand in the issues.
I have little love for the PRCA. But I am not going to address their errors while I am still in my current church – it is not right.
As for Twisse and Kuyper (and Gill), from what I have seen so far, I think they are flirting with the idea but I doubt they believe it and bring it to the logical conclusions which Kraft et al have done so.
Daniel Chew
April 17, 2010 at 2:22 am
3) You seem to be (mis)-interpreting what I am saying. I have said: “Byrne faults them because they refuse to say that God desires the salvation of the reprobates” (Bold added). Yet you then claim that “White is now saying that there is a sense in which God desires the salvation of all men” (Bold added), as if that is a refutation of my former assertion. But the class of “reprobates” and “all men” are not the same class. There is simply no contradictions between White and the contentions of Mark Farnon and me.
And I have said that it is unbiblical to say that God desires the salvation of all men BECAUSE it is always interpreted as saying that God desires the salvation of all men head for head. If one were to say that “God desires the salvation of all men as a class of all men“, I would accept it as biblical truth.
4) I don’t see why that is “Platonic”. Surely you would be familiar with the logical fallacies of division and composition?
As for Murray and the OPC majority report, please note that it is addressing the issue of means. They are merely stating that God does not desire the salvation of reprobates apart from the means of repentance and faith. It does not deny the fact that they are saying that God desires the salvation of reprobates qua reprobates.
See the Minority Report of the 15th OPC GA which I have copied on my blog here, which addresses the arguments put forward by Murray and company.
Tony Byrne
April 11, 2010 at 2:54 am
Here are 23 significant points directly from McMahon’s Brief Critique of Hyper-Calvinism that are relevant for today’s struggle against various aspects of Hyper-Calvinism:
History Matters:
1) Joseph Hussey, John Skepp, and John Gill [specifically the content of Gill's The Cause of God and Truth] are listed as Hyper-Calvinists. Note: Johnson and Toon concur.
2) Iain Murray’s book Spurgeon vs. Hyper-Calvinism is recommended. Note: Murray considers Gill to be a Hyper-Calvinist as well.
3) William Huntington is listed as a Hyper-Calvinist. Note: George Ella is a Gillite/Huntingtonian.
4) The Protestant Reformed Church [specifically David Engelsma] is listed as a Hyper-Calvinist organization. Note: Johnson concurs.
The Love of God Matters:
5) Turretin’s statements about the love of God for all men are set in contrast to the Hyper-Calvinist rejection of that doctrine. Iain Murray says the denial of the love of God is central to the problem of hyper-Calvinism.
6) “The Hyper-Calvinist says preaching does not demonstrate indiscriminate love, it demonstrates specific fact.”
7) “Hyper-Calvinists believe that God only hates the reprobate, and only loves the elect, in any sense whatsoever. Hyper-Calvinism completely denies that God loves men generally in any way and completely denies that God hates the elect in any way. It may seem at the outset that a general love to all men is not as radical as my inference that God hates the elect in some way.”
8 ) “God does have a general love for all men.”
9) For the Hyper-Calvinist, “It is a denial of His general love for all men that is in question.”
10) McMahon cites Calvin’s “A Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God” as proof that he maintained God’s love toward the whole human race.
11) Turretin threefold distinction in divine love is referenced, and he connects the goodness of God shown to all with God’s love for all.
12) Owen is cited as well, and he connects God’s goodness to all men with God’s universal love for them all, even supported by Matt. 5:44-45.
13) McMahon uses scripture to draw the connection between God’s mercy to all with God’s goodness and love for all.
14) They are Hyper-Calvinists who say “That God does not have a general love for all men in His indiscriminate providence.”
The Grace of God Matters:
15) The Gospel is said to be “a gracious command, a tendering of the call, and an invitation to come to Christ.”
The Will of God Matters:
16) McMahon says Isaiah 45:22 implies that God desires men to look to Him and to be saved. “Why would he beckon them to look, unless He desired they look?”
17) One Hyper-Calvinist objection to men being called to excercise saving faith [duty-faith] is to say that it would then “seem as though God desires they repent while at the same time He does not give them the ability to repent. The Hyper-Calvinist thinks this is a contradiction, but it is not.”
18) McMahon says that “it is the proper relationship between what God desires and what he commands that becomes the theological conundrum. The Hyper-Calvinist believes God cannot desire what He does not decree. This is wrong. God desires that we do not sin, but we do. We must, then make a distinction between the senses of the Bible we are speaking about. Are we speaking decretively, or preceptively? Are we speaking by God’s counsel? Or by His revealed will to us? They are mutually exclusive. The free offer does not operate in the realm of the decree, but in the realm of precept. This is another aspect in which the Hyper-Calvinist has made his error.”
19) They are leading themselves in to Hyper-Calvinism who say “That God cannot desire things He has not decreed, or decree things He has not desired.”
The Gospel Offer Matters:
20) The Gospel is an “offer” in the sense that “salvation is tendered.”
21) God himself is offering salvation to all. “Scriptures abound concerning God’s offer of salvation to those who are dead in sin.”
22) Luke 13:34 is listed as part of God’s offering of salvation.
23) The Hyper-Calvinist is simply “dictating facts” [often facts concerning the secret will instead of the revealed will] to the lost, not rightly representing the Gospel.
Dr. James Galyon
April 11, 2010 at 8:50 am
Tony:
I believe your comment is longer than my post. 8) For the record, in addressing historical figures (rather than simply contemporary ones, for which Charles asked), I believe Hussey, Skepp and Gill were hyper-Calvinists, not to mention Brine. There seems to be some disagreement about Gill among Baptist scholars (e.g., T. George, T. Nettles). George Ella, who is a favorite of Wade Burleson and who took Tom Ascol to task for distributing Iain Murray’s Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism, is one who recommends Gill (and Huntington).
I agree completely with the statements, “They are Hyper-Calvinists who say ‘That God does not have a general love for all men in His indiscriminate providence.’”, and, “One Hyper-Calvinist objection to men being called to excercise saving faith [duty-faith] is to say that it would then “seem as though God desires they repent while at the same time He does not give them the ability to repent. The Hyper-Calvinist thinks this is a contradiction, but it is not.”
McMahon rightly points out that God may decree what He does not desire (e.g., sin).
Tony Byrne
April 15, 2010 at 4:06 am
Hi Dr Galyon,
I was highlighting things in McMahon’s article that actually put a spotlight on aspects of contemporary hyper-Calvinism. There are people drawing attention to your post here who do not agree with your opinion about Hussey, Skepp, Gill, Ella and the Hoeksemians [implicitly since they reject the love of God for all men]. For that reason and more, I thought they needed to see particular things in McMahon’s article.
What is remarkable in McMahon’s article is his statements about the will of God, which you also noted. You may not know this but McMahon is in the RPCGA, and their Book of Church Order says:
How this statement can be reconciled with what he says in his critique is beyond me. He is a part of a Clarkian organization that rejects the well-meant offer of the gospel. It is no wonder, then, why the so called “Puritan Board” is now completely overrun by those who reject the well-meant offer.
What is more remarkable in McMahon’s article is not so much that “God may decree what he does not desire (e.g. sin),” but that “The Hyper-Calvinist believes God cannot desire what He does not decree.”
Arminian
April 12, 2010 at 12:30 pm
You recommend an article by C. Matthew McMahon, but is he not a hyper-Calvinist himself? I believe that he believes that non-Calvinists are unsaved, which is one determinative mark of hyper-Calvinism in my book. Monergism.com lists these as hyper-Calvinist beliefs:
- that saving faith is equivalent to belief in the doctrine of predestination
- that only Calvinists are Christians (Neo-gnostic Calvinism)
Whether this has historically been considered hyper-C or not, it certainly should be, wouldn’t you say? It gets to the heart of what the gospel is and what someone must believe to be saved. So I believe such a belief is alone sufficient to make someone a hyper-C, thuog hsomeone could be a hyper-C without believing it. Similarly, anyone holding that one must be an Arminian to be saved would be a hyper-A. Both are pernicious beliefs at odds with the basic gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, and which are divisive to the unity of Christ’s church which he zealously prizes, and which involve their adheremts in denying the salvation of God’s own children! May God have mercy.
Dr. James Galyon
April 12, 2010 at 5:41 pm
Arminian:
I’m not aware of C. Matthew McMahon’s comments of that nature. Neither confirming nor denying – just utilized his article on hyper-Calvinism because he makes several good points on the issue. Certainly the views that believes saving faith is equivalent to belief in predestination, and/or that only Calvinists are Christians is hyper-Calvinistic. Thanks for pointing out that anyone who states only an “Arminian” is saved is a hyper-Arminian and at odds with the gospel. You’re correct, my friend, both positions lack grace and are misguided.
Tony Byrne
April 15, 2010 at 3:41 pm
If it is true that McMahon thinks that all non-Calvinists are hell-bound [where's the documentation?], then that would also be interesting. Why? His RPCGA organization is pushing Clarkian theology, and yet Gordon Clark said:
Arminian
April 12, 2010 at 1:00 pm
Oh, I see that you had the hyper-C tenet I mentioned listed: “Saving faith is equivalent to believing predestination (only “Calvinists” are Christians)”. Does that not fit McMahon? Of course, hyper-C can certainly accurately and helpfully describe hyper-C.
J.C. Thibodaux
April 12, 2010 at 3:30 pm
The irony of course being that McMahon himself is a hyper-Calvinist (a sort of neo-gnostic specifically -he believes anyone who teaches any doctrine contrary to Calvinism is going to hell).
Puritan Lad
April 12, 2010 at 5:19 pm
Good article. I am Supra (Proverbs 16:4 and Romans 9:23 suggests that God does choose who will be reprobate). In the minds of many, high-calvinists, such as John Gill, are unfairly labeled as Hyper. (In fact, some would even suggest that Limited Atonement is hyper). I would suggest the following distinction.
Arminians deny that God has ordained the ends of salvation. Hyper-Calvinists deny that God has ordained the means of salvation. Biblical Calvinism holds that God has ordained both.
charles
April 13, 2010 at 11:02 am
*justification occurs in eternity and not in time.
Heb10:13Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
help me connect the dots here…links would also be appreciated if it saves time. what does it mean that those who are being made holy in space/time were made perfect at the cross (as opposed to His enemies, who were not perfected nor are being made holy)? i would take this to refer to atonement being made (and i probably need to better distinguish between atonement and justification at points.)
if “the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world” refers to a decree that was certain to occur in space/time, is this a similar situation?
appreciate the help…
Dr. James Galyon
April 13, 2010 at 4:50 pm
Charles,
Thanks for the thoughtful question. Yes, there is a difference between atonement and justification. In Heb. 10 we see the Lord Jesus has made the way for us to the Father through the atonement (vv. 19-20; see also 2:17). Justification is receiving the good news involving this atonement. The Apostle Paul spells out the doctrine of justification for us clearly in Romans 4-5. We see there that Abraham was justified “in time,” not eternally. As we get to Rom. 10, we read these words from the Apostle, “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” In other words, justification occurs in time. Hope that helps. Please feel free to ask follow-questions if you like.
Tony Byrne
April 15, 2010 at 5:36 am
Dr. Galyon,
Rather than talk about James White more, which I would prefer not to do since it only seems to invite abuse, we might talk about these points instead:
1) Is it biblically true that God desires the salvation of all men in the revealed will?
2) Does the well-meant offer presuppose that God desires the salvation of all men?
3) Does the rejection of the well-meant offer constitute a form of hyper-Calvinism?
The position of Iain Murray, to whom many appeal [including McMahon], is quite clear. His stated purpose for writing his book Spurgeon v. Hyper-Calvinism is this:
In the section of the book wherein Iain Murray talks about “the most serious difference of all between evangelical Calvinism and Hyper-Calvinism,” he writes:
He appeals to Spurgeon and says that “Spurgeon regarded the denial of God’s desire for the salvation of all men as no mere theoretical mistake. For it converged with one of the greatest obstacles to faith on the part of the unconverted, that is to say, a wrong view of the character of God.” Then, in a footnote, he voices complete agreement with John Murray that “the real point in dispute in connection with the free offer of the gospel is whether it can properly be said that God desires the salvation of all men.” But someone might argue that God’s desire for the salvation of all men is just a secondary matter, as did David Silversides in his book defending the Free Offer [against Engelsma and the PRC]. Murray actually complains about Silversides making the issue secondary, saying:
In Iain Murray’s correspondence with David Engelsma on the free offer of the gospel, he wrote that “The critical issure here, of course, is not the mere use of the term ‘offer’, but whether the offer of the gospel is an expression of God’s desire that it should be received by sinners.” See Banner of Truth 307 (December, 1995), 24-25.
From these sources and more, it is not only true that Iain Murray thinks that God’s desire for the salvation of all men is biblical, and necessarily associated with an affirmation of the free/well-meant offer of the gospel, but that the rejection of it is at the very heart of the hyper-Calvinist error on the free offer. David Gay, writing in the Banner of Truth as well out of a fear that “a practical, or incipient, hyper-Calvinism and a paralysis creeping upon us,” agrees. Those who wish make the issue “secondary” are not in Iain Murray’s position. With all of this, I concur.
It is no wonder that Van Til, Stonehouse and J. Murray “feared” that Gordon Clark was hyper on the offer, as John Frame notes:
Gill, Hoeksema, Clark and Reymond are all the same in terms of rejection God’s desire for the eternal salvation of all men in the revealed will. They all reject it.
Robert Peterson, siding with Anthony Hoekema, thinks the rejection of the well-meant offer is a hyper-Calvinist error. He said:
Hoekema, speaking of “a type of Hyper-Calvinism which, like that of Herman Hoeksema and the Protestant Reformed Churches, denied the well-meant gospel call,” wrote:
Hoekema’s concern was not merely theoretical, but also practical:
Erroll Hulse speaks very strongly, saying:
Though Phil Johnson seems to want to make God’s desire for the salvation of all men a secondary matter, like Silversides, Phil did say this on Mar. 29th, 2000 on the Theology List:
Tony Byrne
April 22, 2010 at 2:15 am
Hi Dr. Galyon,
I wanted to underline something in one of the quotes I provided above. Notice that Iain Murray asks:
For Murray, the idea that God has a general love for all men, including non-elect individuals, is inseparable from the doctrine that He desires the highest good [i.e. eternal salvation] of those loved. It is incoherent, in Murray’s view, to maintain the former without the latter. Consequently, when God expresses His love for all those who hear the external call of the gospel, He is also thereby expressing a sincere desire for their salvation, or highest good [well-meant offer]. Since the doctrine of the love of God is a primary issue for Iain Murray when it comes to addressing the errors of Hyper-Calvinism, so also is the issue of God’s saving desire, which is why he says, “We do not think that Scripture allows us to make the question of God’s desire secondary.” The same false either/or thinking or rationalism that gives rise to their denial of God’s universal love [i.e. if God hates the non-elect, He cannot also love them] also gives rise to their denial of God’s desire to save any of the non-elect [i.e. God cannot desire the salvation of those He has not decreed to save].
Nota Bene: the two things that ALL Hyper-Calvinists share in common are their rationalism and their denial of God’s universal saving will.
Love: Some [like Gill] accept the love of God for all men, but only in the sense of temporal and/or external preservation, not wishing the ultimate salvation of all. It’s mainly modern Hyper-Calvinists, like the Hoeksemians, who deny that God has any sense of love for the non-elect. So not all Hyper-Calvinists reject general love. They differ, but all of them agree that God doesn’t love any non-elect person so as to desire their highest good.
Grace: Similarly, some [like Gill] will accept the doctrine of “common grace,” so long as it is merely the idea of temporal mercies, or that providential bounties accrue to the non-elect like mere incidental crumbs that fall from the table of the elect that God singularly wants to eternally bless. Modern hypers, like the Hoeksemians, reject the doctrine of common grace, since that suggests God has a well-meaning disposition toward all those that receive these bounties. So, not all hyper-Calvinists reject “common grace” either. They differ, but agree that God isn’t desiring the ultimate well-being of everyone who receives these common bounties of providence and restraining activities of God.
Responsiblity: Again, the same thing goes with “duty-faith” [or human responsibility to believe the gospel in an evangelical sense]. Classic Hyper-Calvinists, like Gill, rejected the idea that it is the “duty” of all men to repent and believe in an evangelical sense. Gill distinguishes between civil and evangelical repentance, saying that all men are bound to believe in the first sense but not in the second. The Hoeksemians accept “duty-faith,” unlike Gill. Even with this issue, the Hyper-Calvinists differ.
The one thing they all agree with, without exception, is that God ONLY desires to eternally save the elect [stemming from their rationalism]. That’s the essential core of their problem [i.e. the Ring of Power. or The Preciousss, that you shall not touch], and Iain Murray rightly identifies it as the primary issue at stake concerning the “free offer.” He echoes John Murray when he says that “The critical issure here, of course, is not the mere use of the term ‘offer’, but whether the offer of the gospel is an expression of God’s desire that it should be received by sinners.” [See Banner of Truth 307 (December, 1995), 24-25.] When the light of this issue gets turned on inside the self-described house of Calvinism, then you can see all the creeping critters and stealthily hiding cockroaches in the cracks and crevices
Tony Byrne
April 22, 2010 at 2:59 am
I should have included the following category as well.
Free Offers: Classic Hyper-Calvinists either taught that God was only offering to the elect or that God was offering the gospel to anyone. Since an “offer” suggests 1) a desire to give on some condition that which is offered, 2) that the offerer has something to give all those offered, and 3) those receiving the offer have an ability to receive it, classic Hyper-Calvinists rejected “offers.” Modern Hyper-Calvinists, seeing that all the Puritans and Reformers use the term “offer,” choose to re-define it, so that it is merely a “bare presentation,” like stating or proclaiming information/propositions to all men. They don’t want to indiscriminately convey to their hearers in the gospel proclamation that God tenderly loves all of them and is appealing to them to be reconciled, or that He is seeking their salvation. While they boast in “preaching” to all men, it is devoid of warm evangelical appeal that accords with God’s own “yearning love” [as D. A. Carson describes God's universal love]. Some Hyper-Calvinists taught that God was only “offering” to the elect [early R. Davis], some taught that God was not “offering” the gospel to anyone [Gill], but modern Hyper-Calvinists [Hoeksema, Engelsma, etc.] use the term “offer,” but re-define it, so as to appear mainstream, orthodox, confessional, or Puritan, etc. This is one of the reasons why Hulse says:
—————————
Also, on common grace and God’s desire, notice what Erroll Hulse says:
I should have included that above, since you can see his point by saying “not only for man’s temporal well-being.” Hulse is targeting Gillite “common grace” there. Hulse associates himself with the following men in his teaching:
Say what Hulse says on the love of God, the will of God, the grace of God and the free offer and you will inevitably be called an Arminian by those within some branch of Hyper-Calvinism.
Phil Johnson wrote this about the too often neglected Hulse [click to read excerpts]:
Mark
April 15, 2010 at 10:30 pm
The question was
Ironically, I saw no Bible in the “answer” to this question unless some new biblical texts have been found that were written by folks with more modern sounding names.
Tony Byrne
April 16, 2010 at 5:25 pm
Hi Mark,
Since Dr. Galyon’s post is about hyper-Calvinism, I took the time to focus on the third question:
Dr. Galyon has been gracious enough to allow my many citations [thanks], so I thought it best to only include those that pertain to the scholarly opinions about hyper-Calvinism, instead of posting what these men, along with all the Puritans and Reformers, have said about biblical verses that teach God’s universal saving will. However, in the lower comment area, you can see that I brought up Dr. Samuel Waldron’s treatment of John 5:34. It is, I think, an example of solid exegesis. Do you agree with his take on it? And, for starters, do you agree that there is a sense in which God desires the salvation of all men in the revealed will, as someone like Spurgeon maintained? I assume you do, but I am don’t recall you saying so anywhere.
Grace to you,
Tony
TurretinFan
April 21, 2010 at 4:10 pm
Daniel: Yes. He seems to have an extremely long-winded way of saying “I’m not going to tell you what I believe.”
Nevertheless, as a gesture of goodwill, I’ll answer his question: “Do you think that Daniel Chew is rightly representing White’s view on the revealed will of God and the salvation of all men?”
I have no idea. I haven’t seen Daniel Chew’s representation of Dr. White’s position. Why not just call Dr. White’s radio program and ask him yourself? He’s not pseudonymous like me, and you know what number to call already. If you don’t, visit http://www.aomin.org/ and look for the “webcast” details.
-TurretinFan
Tony Byrne
April 23, 2010 at 5:50 am
You say:
My response to you made these following points:
1) Your question was off topic. My historical assessment of what constitutes hyper-Calvinism based on my citations of Iain Murray, Curt Daniel, Robert Peterson, Anthony Hoekema and others should have been your focus here, but I understand why you would want to leave that area, given your own denials that Gill, Hoeksema and Clark are hyper-Calvinists.
2) If you are unwilling to say that White is wrong, then you should already know what I believe. White said these exact words to David Hewitt [one of his friends] in his own chat channel:
There’s no need for you to ask me what I believe if you already know what Arminianism is and if you believe James White. And, if you don’t know what Arminians believe about the will of God, then why are you advising White in matters concerning Calvinism? David Hewitt honestly confessed, albeit with understatement:
3) If you are willing to say that White is wrong and that Tony really believes what John Murray and R. L. Dabney taught, then, again, there’s no need to answer your question. Are Murray and Dabney not clear enough for you? If you want me to repeat what Murray and Dabney argued at length, then I would be even more “long-winded” than you say I am. Even Walter Chantry appeals to Dabney in order to explain “God’s Attitude Towards Unbelievers” and how “There is Complexity In the Character and Mind of God”. In 2005 I posted on “Dabney and Other Theologians on Volitional Complexity in God.” Earlier that same year I even recorded myself reading Dabney’s work on “God’s Indiscriminate Proposals,” which Ryan, at “Radio Apologia” hosts on his staunchly Calvinistic website. Phil Johnson writes this about Dabney’s work:
If you read Dabney and understand him [as with John Murray], then you will know what I say I believe.
4) I don’t owe an unaccoutable and anonymous man an explanation of my beliefs, particularly when he’s unwilling to forthrightly answer my questions. For example, my question was driving at the point of whether you think Daniel Chew and James White believe the same thing about God’s will and the non-elect, and you know they are not in agreement. Chew thinks that God only desires to save the elect, and he expresses that belief using Hoeksemian terms, such that God desires to save the species or class of mankind or humanity in so far as he desires to save all the elect in that class [but none of the non-elect/reprobate in that class, hence not "head for head"]. White has argued that God desires to save all those commanded to believe and repent, which necessarily includes non-elect individuals. White is saying the ball is blue. Chew is saying the ball is red. While these statements are not technically contradictory, they are certainly contrary. White hasn’t said Chew is wrong and Chew hasn’t said White is wrong, but their positions are logically incompatible, and thus contrary, at least. When I asked you if Chew was rightly representing White, you say “I don’t know.” I think you said that because you realize that Chew is actually in agreement with Robert Reymond. Option #1: If you say Chew is wrong, then you have to say Reymond is wrong, but then you would have to say that White should not have said he agrees with Reymond. Option #2: On the other hand, if you say that Chew and White agree, then you have to say that White does not think that God desires to save any of the non-elect in any sense. You would then have to say that David Allen’s report about White based on his DL call with Jason is correct [and that David Hewitt is wrong]. You’re on the horns of a dilemma, like those in Luke 20:1-8. Like you, these people chose to say “I don’t know” in answer to Jesus. Therefore, neither will I explain to you what I believe on the will of God, since I believe your motives are like them. You say that you “haven’t seen Daniel Chew’s representation of White’s position.” Well, here it is, in this very thread:
Personally, I don’t think your answer was a “gesture of goodwill.” I think it was a case of evading. But now that you see Chew’s description of White’s position, maybe you will prove how “good-willing” you are and try again.
You say:
Are you kidding me? Haven’t you been listening or reading? White has said:
According to him, I am not only an Arminian on the will of God, and “more intent upon attacking Calvinism than promoting the freedom of God in salvation,” but I am a stubborn “Amyraldian” [which he descibes as "not technically four pointers"] that he doesn’t want dialogue with. Incidentally, have you heard of anyone who is “not technically a four pointer” who believes in Arminian equal ultimacy on the will of God? lol Apparently that is me. Anyway, it seems that I am worse than Muslims, Ergun Caner, Dave Hunt, JW’s, RC’s, KJVO advocates, among others, since he goes on for years and years and years with those poor blind people who are incapable of hearing anything outside of their theological strictures. It doesn’t matter if I say I am a Calvinist. White [whom you refuse to correct], apparently, has me “all figured out.” I am “banned” from his chat room [for some unexplained reason] and you expect me to feel welcome to call?
I would rather engage people in text, so they can carefully check all the sources and follow the discussion at their own pace, which usually doesn’t take place in phone calls.
Still astonished,
Tony
p.s. Dr. Galyon, that is my last post to these guys [Chew and T-Fan] here, if you will permit it. I would prefer to stay on topic and discuss the historical sources I posted, and not get in to personal issues. Anyway, thanks for your permission in allowing my posts. I hope the sources help Christians who are seeking to impartially investigate the sources.
Dr. James Galyon
April 23, 2010 at 12:02 pm
Tony:
Thanks for your input. You’re not banned from 2WC, so drop by any time.
TurretinFan
April 27, 2010 at 11:39 am
Mr. Byrne:
1) What Dr. White believes (or what Chew believes) is no more relevant to the post than what you believe. To that extent, I agree with you. Yet, you have dragged their beliefs into the discussion, so it’s a little strange for you to call “off topic” when your own beliefs are solicited.
2) I think it is good for people to be aware that you, when asked, conceal your beliefs while attacking the beliefs of others. Obviously, your concealing your beliefs is no more relevant to the merits of your points than my concealing my identity is relevant to the merits of my points. On the other hand, while pseudonymous writing has a long reformation history, I’m not aware of any Reformers who hid their own beliefs in order to attack those with whom they disagreed.
3) A central plank of your criticism of godly Calvinists like Dr. James White is that you claim that they reject the “universal saving will of God.” However, when asked to explain what the “universal saving will of God” means, you are apparently unable to do so. That, more than whether you personally believe in God’s “universal saving will,” is one thing that fundamentally undermines your arguments. If you cannot define the relation between God’s “universal saving will” and his two wills (preceptive and decretive), you can’t fairly maintain the arguments you are presenting. This question of mine is not about exposing your secret beliefs, but about noting that you have no coherent theological grounds for your attacks.
4) Of course, I knew to ask this question because I’m aware of the theology that you are trying to promote via your attacks on Dr. White and others. I understand your theological motivations for doing it, even though you are not willing to make those theological motivations explicit when asked. Instead, you rant about my pseudonymity (which you mischaracterize as anonymity) and falsely accuse me of being unaccountable. I’m used to this from you and the rest of your gang. Both the modus operandi and the arguments you use are not Biblical, but I will let you stand before God on the former, while I note the critical weakness of the latter.
-TurretinFan
Daniel Chew
April 28, 2010 at 5:50 am
Tony:
you seem to have an inability to understand even my position. Which part of corporate/ organic/ collective “desire” do you not seem to understand?
>White has argued that God desires to save all those commanded to believe and repent, which necessarily includes non-elect individuals
Again, I have no problem with that. As part of the class of “men”, the reprobates are included in God’s “desire” for their salvation, but as reprobates they are not so included.
It really gets irritating when you consistently misrepresent my position.
Tony Byrne
April 23, 2010 at 4:09 am
Daniel Chew,
1) Would you say the following proposition is true or false?
2) And do you think John Gill and Robert Reymond would say the proposition is true or false?
Proposition: It is biblically true that as a result of the desire God has for men to be obedient to repent there is the same kind of desire for the salvation of the non-elect.
Notice that the proposition specifies “the non-elect” individuals. I ask because I think the proposition is true, and that it is in accord with John Murray’s position as well.
Daniel Chew
April 28, 2010 at 5:56 am
1) I reject that proposition as being inherently Amyraldian.
2) I am no expert in Gill. As for Reymond, he would deny it, if I have read his Systematic Theology correctly.
Murray, the BOT etc can claim to follow the Reformed tradition, but I think a proper reading of the original source documents would show that their reading is in error. C. Matthew McMahon in his PhD thesis has given us a better interpretation of what the historic Reformed theologians like Calvin, Turretin etc have believed, with the exception of Dabney.
Tony Byrne
April 28, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Proposition: It is biblically true that as a result of the desire God has for men to be obedient to repent, there is the same kind of desire for the salvation of the non-elect.
David Hewitt said that White believes the above proposition, saying:
Daniel Chew said:
“I reject that proposition as being inherently Amyraldian.”
Ergo, James White must be an Amyraldian
Tony Byrne
April 28, 2010 at 5:25 pm
p.s. I agree with you, Daniel, that Reymond would deny the proposition. For that reason, it is inconsistent for White to say [via Hewitt] that he both agrees with the above proposition and also sides with Reymond.
Daniel Chew
May 2, 2010 at 11:08 am
Tony:
again, you don’t understand what you are talking about. Which part of “in some sense” do you NOT understand? Which sense? In the “preceptive will” sense? Then all of us can agree to that. But this is not what you are pushing! You and the other Ponterites are pushing your hobbie-horse of “God desiring the salvation of the reprobates” and “universal saving will” and condemning all who disagree with your indiscriminate application as “hyper-Cals”.
You refuse to let anyone or even church assemblies (15th OPC GA) speak for themselves. It seem clear now that you couldn’t care less for engaging the real issues and instead hide behind sheer verbiage of words without once allowing them to be defined by the authors, and then assuming that the words they use have the same meaning as what you think they must mean, including their entire semantic ranges too!
The reports of the 15th OPC GA has already brought much clarity to the issues involved, which sadly has not been surpassed till this day. To obfuscate using ambiguous terminology and equivocating on them shows the poverty of your position.
Daniel Chew
May 2, 2010 at 11:16 am
Again, Dave Hewitt’s sentence is vague. It can be construed in such a way that it is consistent with what White has publicly stated on his blog, but it can also be construed according to your (Tony Byrne’s) Amyraldian understanding.
Ergo, you continue to obfuscate on the issue and equivocate on the words used.
I have construed your proposition in a certain way which is the natural reading of the sentence. If you want to construe it in an unnatural way, I can agree with it. The reason why I have said it is inherently Amyradian is because the orthodox “spin” on the proposition is the unnatural reading of it.
Again, you Tony have yet to show the proper precision in dealing with this topic. Perhaps you may want to stop pontificating on who is or is not hyper-Calvinists and actually do some [real] research of your own.
Daniel Chew
May 2, 2010 at 11:17 am
Oh, btw, a grammatical error above:
“reports… HAVE…”
tartanarmy
August 9, 2010 at 12:32 pm
So sad. Tony just does not get it……Mark
Chris Duncan
December 14, 2010 at 9:13 pm
Hello, James-
This is a bit late in the game — I just found this site– but I wanted to comment on what you said here:
“Examples of modern hyper-Calvinists include Marc Carpenter, Chris Duncan, and Christopher Adams.”
We have an article written against hypercalvinism, actually:
Anyway, just throwing it out there.
-Chris Duncan
Dr. James Galyon
December 15, 2010 at 11:34 pm
Marc & Chris:
Thanks for dropping by 2WC. Of course, since you believe such Reformed stalwarts as Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, John MacArthur, R. C. Sproul, J. I. Packer, and Charles Spurgeon are “outside the camp,” not to mention John Calvin himself, I doubt that any of the regulars here at 2WC (not to mention yours truly) would fare any better in your estimation. Nonetheless, I’ve approved your comments with the provided links in order that they may see what you have to say.
Marc Carpenter
December 15, 2010 at 7:25 pm
We at Outside the Camp get slandered as being Hyper-Calvinists by the clueless. To see what we really believe, read “Damnable Hyper-Calvinist Heresy.”
Chris Duncan
December 19, 2010 at 8:39 am
Hello, James-
Thanks for allowing our comments through. Your response is commonplace among the Calvinist and Reformed. John 12:43 and 2 Corinthians 10:12 are passages that come to mind in response to what you’ve said concerning the “stalwarts.” If you would permit one more link to the common reaction that you’ve articulated, this would be it:
http://www.outsidethecamp.org/heterodoxy.htm
Michel Kinson
January 20, 2011 at 10:19 pm
I’d like a sincere reply to my sincere query.
I came out of modern Arminianism (with its perseverance, dispensationalism and antinomianism) after 7-8 years. I know pretty well what they believe and as God drew me out, pulling off the blinders they to the truth that they implanted in my heart and mind, I came to the conclusion that they preach another gospel than that clearly stated in the Bible.
Their understanding of man as wounded (I never heard of restorative grace/prevenient grace til later) but retaining the freedom of choosing good (God) or evil; denying the truth about man and God’s view of man.
Their twisting of election being based on the what ones “choice/decision” about Jesus would be; man is ultimately sovereign.
That Christ died for all men and loves all men, the same, and desire all men to be saved; loved and died for people in hell.
That all who “sincerely” pray the prayer are automatically saved; perverting justification to dependency on an act of man’s will.
That every baby and child under a certain age, are saved; pure fiction.
Sounds minor? God’s mode of salvation is nothing to be trifled with. The Synod of Dort knew this and rid the church of such teachers. Why does modern-Calvinism now defend these children of heretics?
The hatred of God’s salvation was the issue and the modern Arminians (though they know it not) are followers of those heretics, not sound biblical teachings. They love another “father,” “savior,” and “spirit” invented by the twisted, God hating minds of men like John Wesley (sermon Free Grace):
“26. This is the blasphemy clearly contained in the horrible decree+ of predestination! And here I fix my foot. On this I join issue with every assertor of it. You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture that God is worse than the devil I cannot be. Whatever that Scripture proves, it never an prove this; whatever its true meaning be. This cannot be its true meaning. Do you ask, “What is its true meaning then” If I say, ” I know not,” you have gained nothing; for there are many scriptures the true sense whereof neither you nor I shall know till death is swallowed up in victory. But this I know, better it were to say it had no sense, than to say it had such a sense as this. It cannot mean, whatever it mean besides, that the God of truth is a liar. Let it mean what it will it cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust. No scripture can mean that God is not love, or that his mercy is not over all his works; that is, whatever it prove beside, no scripture can prove predestination”
Some saint! Who could be saved under the preaching of a man who so hated the truth about God’s salvation? much less the preaching of his imitators/children?
Explain the truth about salvation to any Arminian, if they don’t look at you like you came from outer space or just run away from you like you were possessed ask them what they think ultimately saved them and they’ll say they had faith, they prayed the prayer, they gave their heart to “Jesus,” the Arminian Jesus. They, unless they’re elect will reject the truth. I’ve yet to have one believe the truth.
You view Arminians through modern eyes accustomed to their dominance but remember, Israel was dominated by followers of system invented by the Pharisees/Sadducee’s etc. and most perished. They should be objects of evangelism not cooperated with. Is this hyper?
Dr. James Galyon
January 20, 2011 at 11:49 pm
Michael:
I’ll certainly reply as sincerely to you as possible. Like you, I came out of an Arminian background. I was a 5-pt Arminian for 15 years. However, I do not believe Arminians preach another gospel. In fact, I ask with all honestly, were you saved prior to becoming a “Calvinist”? If so, then which message did you hear and where (and from whom) did you hear it? I would also point out that classical Arminianism (i.e., Remonstrance) is different than what is mostly classified as Arminianism today. What is generally classified as Arminianism today is Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism.
Human beings are certainly more than wounded. Fallen human beings are anarchists and rebels. Nonetheless, God calls all people to repentance from sin and faith in Christ Jesus. Those in the “Arminian” camp look at the passages calling upon people to choose God. They disagree with the Calvinistic position as to what is required for that to take place. They do not believe that man is ultimately sovereign, but instead that God has chosen to limit Himself in the exertion of His sovereignty (and you and I disagree with them on that point greatly). Yes, they view the love of God differently in that they see all people as equally loved, regardless. In other words, Hitler is loved as much as the Apostle John. Again, we disagree on that. Does God love people in Hell? I believe He does. He does not delight in the death of the wicked, according to the Scriptures. However, the love He has for His bride is different (just as the love I have for my wife is greater and more comprehensive than the love I have for the neighbor lady who lives down the street). Do you believe that all who pray, truly in faith, are justified? Justification depends ultimately on God’s grace, but faith (which includes the act of the will) is not absent. In fact, no one is justified without believing (exercising the will in embracing Christ Jesus). Those who believe that the elect are justified in eternity have perverted the doctrine of justification. There is not unanimous agreement among Calvinists regarding the salvation of infants and small children. Scripture doesn’t give a clear answer. To say it is “pure fiction” is an overstatement, since Scripture doesn’t say it is such. Spurgeon, for example, believed in the salvation of infants and small children — not due to their innocence (which is a pure fiction, according to Scripture), but due to the grace of God alone. I agree with him on that point.
You’re correct, God’s way of salvation is not to be trifled with. What is that way? It is believing the promise of God through Christ. To say John Wesley was a God-hater is way over the top. Do you know how he suffered for the gospel? Have you ever had garbage thrown at you for proclaiming the gospel? Ever been kicked out of a church building for preaching the gospel? Ever been beaten for preaching the gospel? He did, multiple times. Was Wesley too harsh in his words regarding the doctrines of election and predestination? Certainly! But stalwart Calvinists such as Whitefield and Spurgeon still noted, despite their great disagreement with him, that he is a brother in Christ. If he wasn’t a child of God, and his preaching was so unbiblical, it seems hard to explain the revival which swept over Great Britain and the great moral reform which flowed from that revival. God works through His imperfect children. If someone believes they are saved because they believed, rather than because Christ died for them, then yes, they are trusting themselves and their power and not Christ.
Michael, I do not believe I’m viewing “Arminians through modern eyes accustomed to their dominance,” but through eyes which have seen the beauty of Christ and seek to view others through the lens of grace. Should they be objects of evangelism? Some of them, yes! Just as some Calvinists should be. Questions to ask regarding peoples’ salvation are outlined in I John. Do they love the light and walk in righteousness? Do they love their fellow Christians? Is the fruit of the Spirit evident in their lives? Those are the types of questions which need to be answered in determining whether or not someone is following Christ, not whether or not they agree with the five points of Calvinism.
Michel Kinson
January 21, 2011 at 10:04 am
Thank you so much for engaging me. I will have an answer for you hopefully this evening.
Michel Kinson
January 21, 2011 at 9:53 pm
Dr. Galyon, please take this in the best possible way as it is no reflection of my opinion of you; I don’t even know you.
Dr. Galyon says: I’ll certainly reply as sincerely to you as possible. Like you, I came out of an Arminian background. I was a 5-pt Arminian for 15 years. However, I do not believe Arminians preach another gospel. In fact, I ask with all honestly, were you saved prior to becoming a “Calvinist”?
I, of course, believe that God has His elect in as many places and back grounds as He has determined. They can be, and have been, in the Roman Catholic Church, Judaism, in Hinduism, Islam, Mormonism, JWs, and Arminian Churches. Was I saved as an Arminian? I don’t think so. Why? Because I too ultimately denied what the Bible clearly teaches (instead believing my teachers over the Bible), that salvation is all of grace. Arminian’s purposely blinds you to that. They utter words similar to the truth, but, when dug into you discover ultimately you are saved because you first had faith. When challenged by Calvinists, without even having read any Arminian doctrine on the subject, I too argued for predestination based on foreseen faith. I argued that I was ultimately saved because I chose Christ and others didn’t. I glorified myself. I was over joyed too to see that the majority agreed with me and took great comfort in that. How can they all be wrong? They were and are wrong. Arminianism inherently glorifies man. If one truly thinks about it. On the surface, as it is offered, it is a bit more deceptive and sucks you in.
Dr. Galyon says: Again, we disagree on that. Does God love people in Hell? I believe He does.
Respectfully, then who does He hate? I’ve looked up the Hebrew and Greek translations of the term (hated) used in pertenant (I think) passages of Malachi and Romans,
Malachi 1
” 2I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau….”
Romans 9
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The use of the term “hated” in Malachi in the Hebrew means: “to hate (personally): – enemy, foe, (be) hate (-ful -r), odious, utterly (Strongs Exhuastive Concordance). However when interpreting the passage in Romans where the word “hate” is used, though in Greek, most Arminians (and some Calvinists) choose to use the Greek definition which although its use can mean “loves less,” however, they purposely bypass the other uses: “miseo” – from a primary misos (hatred); to detest (espec. to persecute); by extens. to love less; hate (-ful). Why men would use the only definition inconsistent with the Hebrew is interesting. Perhaps because it goes against their preconceived notions about God’s universal love of ALL men. Jacob is a picture of the elect and Esau of the reprobate.
Dr. Galyon says: Do you believe that all who pray, truly in faith, are justified?
Respectfully, justification is an instantaneous declaration upon faith, which is God-given. First you are predestined in eternity past, in time you are called, then you are justified (through faith), sanctified, and ultimately glorified. A prayer doesn’t cause one to be justified. No act of man can make him justified. When you say “truly and faithfully” I think that is reading into men’s hearts. I know that in my human nature, I’m never fully true or faithful and neither is anyone else.
Dr. Galyon says: Those who believe that the elect are justified in eternity have perverted the doctrine of justification.
Absolutely!
Dr. Galyon says: There is not unanimous agreement among Calvinists regarding the salvation of infants and small children. Scripture doesn’t give a clear answer. To say it is “pure fiction” is an overstatement, since Scripture doesn’t say it is such.
I only stated that it is pure fiction to teach that EVERY child who dies goes to heaven. Which many, not all are teaching.
Dr. Galyon says: You’re correct, God’s way of salvation is not to be trifled with. What is that way?
I think I said God’s mode of salvation. In other words how God brings and carries His people to ultimate salvation. Not at what point a person is declared righteous or justified. As I stated above, it begins with predestination which Wesley hates and all Arminians reject. I’m not say ALL will reject, God’s elect will eventually recieve. Those who don’t hate predestination aren’t Arminian. I have yet to meet one, but as I said I do believe they’re out there.
Dr. Galyon says: To say John Wesley was a God-hater is way over the top.
Respectfully, John Wesley clearly stated his opinion of a god who would predestine some to salvation and not others. Wesley proclaimed his hated for that god and that is the only God there is. God is the God of predestination and sovereign election and reprobation and that God Wesley wanted nothing to do with and sought to take others with him and has by the millions. He is as John describes Antichrists;
1 John 2:18-19 (King James Version)
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Anti-Christ can be marked by preaching a false gospel/salvation and smearing God’s name. As far as my being over the top, I only wished I’d been there to hear him with a nice juicy tomato in hand as he attacked the God I love. You forget that Wesley also preached that not only were you saved because of your faith, but you only continue to be saved by your faithfulness.
Dr. Galyon says: God works through His imperfect children. If someone believes they are saved because they believed, rather than because Christ died for them, then yes, they are trusting themselves and their power and not Christ.
Respectfully, I suggest to you that John Wesley was no child of God because the Spirit does not war against the Spirit. Why would the Holy Spirit (supposedly indwelling Wesley) deny His own workings in salvation? Why would God bless a ministry that was at war with Him and His ways? Wesley made it his mission to fight against Calvinism and to quote Spurgeon:
“The doctrine of justification itself, as preached by an Arminian, is nothing but the doctrine of salvation by works…” — C.H. Spurgeon and
In his work, “A Defence of Calvinism,” he states unequivocally: [T]here is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation
I don’t usually quote Spurgeon, because he did for some reason laud Wesley’s works, but ultimately he was against his gospel. I can’t understand it.
I can’t imagine one Reformer who would have embraced Wesley. I don’t believe the Apostle Paul would have embraced him either.
Dr. James Galyon
January 22, 2011 at 2:03 am
Michael:
A few thoughts in response….
We agree that justification is a declaration which is made the moment one believes (“upon faith,” as you put it). Yes, faith is God-given. We agree that a prayer doesn’t cause one to be justified.
You stated, “I only wished I’d been there to hear [Wesley] with a nice juicy tomato in hand as he attacked the God I love.” So, rather than praying compassionately and tenderly for one you consider to have been lost, you would have pelted him with fruit? Since you consider Wesley, and others like him, as enemies, why don’t you love them? That is what God has commanded. The Lord Jesus Christ declared, “I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Dr. James Galyon
January 22, 2011 at 2:04 am
More to come in future posts regarding the topic at hand…
Dr. James Galyon
January 22, 2011 at 5:54 pm
There are no longer Edomites (descendants of Esau) on the face of the earth, but there are certainly those who are their spiritual heirs — those who are the declared enemies of God and His people. In Romans 9, and in the OT (Genesis), we see that Esau hated Jacob and the enmity of the Edomites against Israel was great. When Jerusalem was overrun by the Babylonians, the descendants of Esau participated in the slaughter of Jewish infants (Ps. 137:7-9). God pronounced His judgment against Edom through the prophet Obadiah, and confirmed His judgment through the prophet Malachi (1:2-5). Despite this pronouncement, the Lord graciously gave an inheritance to the Edomites and enabled them to remove the Horites in Seir. This was not unlike the inheritance He gave to Israel (Deu. 2:12). Israel was also commanded not to despise an Edomite because “he is your brother” (Deu. 23:7). So, in spite of the vast spiritual differences, Israel was commanded to live in peace with these enemies. The prophet Amos also foretold that a remnant of Edom would be restored to the tabernacle of David (Amos 9:12; see Acts 15:15-18). In the NT, the Idumeans (Edomites) sought the mercy of Christ Jesus (Mk 3:8), and Joanna, the wife of Chuza (steward to King Herod, the Idumean), was healed by the Lord (Lk 8:3). God has declared a remnant from “every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation” will celebrate His grace in heaven (see Rev 5:9-10). This includes the descendants of Esau. The affirmation of God’s love for Jacob is not a love for the nation of Israel, but a love of the Lord Jesus and those who are in Him. Likewise, the hatred addressed against Esau is addressed to all who are outside of Christ and reject the Gospel. Nonetheless, the Lord Jesus teaches us to love all men as the Father does. He shows them love by sending rain upon them, etc. We’re reminded that it is the kindness of God which leads us to repentance. God loves His enemies.
Dr. James Galyon
January 22, 2011 at 6:01 pm
In Romans 9, where the Apostle Paul appeals to Malachi 1:2-3, it should be noted that the verb “loved” has the force of “chose,” whereas the verb “hated” has the force of “rejected.” In this context, these terms fit better. Jacob was chosen, receiving the blessings of God, whereas Esau was rejected (see Heb 12:17). God pursued Jacob actively in grace, while He permitted Esau to justly receive his due reward.
Michel Kinson
January 22, 2011 at 9:41 am
Very well. I a very grateful to you for this opportunity as these questions have for years plagued me and I received no adequate response. I hope you don’t see me as your enemy for I definitely don’t hold you as mine. Blessing to you, Michel
Dr. James Galyon
January 22, 2011 at 10:10 am
Michel:
I definitely don’t view you as an enemy. In fact, I posed the question about loving one’s enemies with the greatest concern – especially because I consider you a fellow Christian. Are we not commanded to love and bless those who hate and persecute us? This is a matter of the heart, which is nothing with which the Christian should trifle. I’ll soon respond to your questions on the hate of God, etc., but I was getting in at almost midnight last night after a very long day at work and getting up fairly early this morning with tasks to do. Hope you’ll stick around awhile.
Michel Kinson
January 22, 2011 at 1:19 pm
Of course you are right about loving your enemies.
Take all the time you need.
Michel Kinson
January 22, 2011 at 2:05 pm
Just so you don’t waste our time, don’t bother yourself trying to convince me of the free offer. I studied the issue and heard the debates and I’m with the PRCA on this issue. Think many a good man can and do disagree.
However, I’m more interested in discussing this Wesley/Arminian issue.
Why waste your time?
Dr. James Galyon
January 22, 2011 at 4:20 pm
Michel:
Okay, thanks, I won’t.
Michel Kinson
January 23, 2011 at 8:46 am
You know, I hadn’t seen these latter comments until now and again I’m not going to debate the common grace issue. Arminianism is the real danger for so many Calvinists are leading God’s people to fully embrace them as brethren.
Michel Kinson
January 24, 2011 at 2:19 pm
So, What say you about Wesley now?
I’m reading Calvin on the reprobate; so far it’s not looking good for the free-offer.
Best wishes,
Michel (Michele)
Dr. James Galyon
January 24, 2011 at 8:29 pm
Michel:
What do I say about Wesley now? I say the same thing that eminent Calvinists said. Whitefield called Wesley his “very dear Brother” while rebuking him for his ‘Free Grace’ sermon. Spurgeon, in his ‘Defense of Calvinism‘, declared this:
“There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer—I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one “of whom the world was not worthy.” I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths [Doctrines of Grace], or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of Heaven.”
As far as the free-offer goes, I think you should study Calvin’s evangelism and mission strategies. Best wishes to you as you continue to study.
Michel Kinson
January 25, 2011 at 7:34 am
Have you read his sermon “Free Grace?”
Calvin, Augustine Spurgeon are men and are capable of inconsistency, error, etc. Read that sermon. Is John Wesley not, in his soul, hateful of the salvation of God? Yes, he is. You have not addressed him, but rested on Spurgeon’s and Whitefield’s opinions of him. Most moderns do even to the point of calling him a “confused-Calvinist.” Wesley was a proud Arminian and made no bones about it. His publication was called The Arminian.
Kindly tell me, what reformer would have embraced John Wesley? Certainly not Luther, Calvin or Knox.
I have a book by Calvin, A treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God. The arguments are against a monk, but could easily have been addressing an Arminian. Calvin doesn’t hold back his disdain for the man or the system invented by Catholics (and adopted by Arminians). Point by point identical to Arminianism! Calvin, after Pighius’ death, refers to him as a “dead dog” for spreading such blasphemies.
But modern-Calvinists love Wesley who taught the same thing, most hatefully and embrace his grace denying children more readily than true brethren.
I marvel at it all.
Dr. James Galyon
January 25, 2011 at 9:26 am
Yes, Michel, I’ve read the sermon. I’ve also read Whitefield’s letter in reply. My thoughts on Wesley’s sermon are the same as that of Whitefield. Why should I not rest on Whitefield’s opinion, in large part? Whitefield was his contemporary, and knew him better than others. Luther, Calvin, and Knox were all before his time. Spurgeon followed, but was able to see the effects of Wesley’s life in their home country. Wesley was no “confused Calvinist.” However, unlike Pighius, he did not declare that “our works are meritorious before God.” Just the opposite. He preached justification by grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone. Pighius’ view of original sin differed from that of Wesley, if you take the time to read Wesley’s sermon on that topic.
Michel Kinson
January 25, 2011 at 10:59 am
I have an Anthology of his sermons. I don’t like to trust myself to the views of others. I like to go to the horses mouth.
Prevenient Grace is Wesley’s grace and it doesn’t exist. It allowed him to deceive many. Whilst preaching he could utter the words “grace,” but not the saving grace that we know. This is a universal endowment by God. A restorative grace enabling man ALL MEN to choose to DO righteousness before God. The righteousness of repentance and faith FOR salvation.
John Wesley through his prevenient grace completely agree with the Remonstrants that man is not Totally Depraved, that election is conditional, grace is resistible, Christ died for all, and you can fall away.
You must too believe that the very controversy between the two systems was but a complete waste of time; that the Synod did get it all wrong. There was no danger in the preaching of Arminianism.
Again, John Wesley hated the God of election and reprobation. What say you of that?
Dr. James Galyon
January 25, 2011 at 11:56 am
Michel:
A few thoughts…
- Neither you or I believe prevenient grace is a biblical doctrine. Therefore, we agree upon that point.
- I do not believe the Synod of Dort was a complete waste of time. However, I do believe that much of the aftermath of that Synod was overreactionary, to say the least. Nonetheless, the messengers to that meeting were quite right to detail their canons in the fashion they did, thinking carefully through the Scripture and its practical applications.
- I say that Wesley spoke foolishly, which is essentially what Whitefield told him. Whitefield closed his letter to Wesley by speaking of heaven, saying, “There, I am persuaded, I shall see dear Mr. Wesley convinced of election and everlasting love. And it often fills me with pleasure to think how I shall behold you casting your crown down at the feet of the Lamb, and as it were filled with a holy blushing for opposing the divine sovereignty in the manner you have done.” I believe the same of Wesley, and of other Christians who have fallen into the same error.
Michel Kinson
January 25, 2011 at 3:23 pm
Okay.
I think I’ve beat that horse enough.
Best wishes!
Bob Hadley
July 7, 2011 at 11:24 pm
I am confused… you say that Supralapsarianism is the view that God, contemplating humanity as yet unfallen, chose some as recipients of His grace while rejecting others. It teaches the divine decree of election logically preceded the decrees to create and permit the Fall.
Anyone holding this view would have to be a unversalist for if there were no fall, then there would have been no lost and there would be no need for God to chose who would and would not spend eternity in heaven… or am I missing something here? If God chose to exclude some with NO FALL that would seem to me to be a very difficult position to defend.
In considering your points on hyper-calvinism…
•God is the author of sin and evil… this one all Calvinists have to dance around carefully…
language is a wonderful tool…
•Human beings have absolutely no will whatsoever… when it comes to salvation for Calvinists… the
only will that counts is the will that God regenerates… that poor fella that God does not
efficaciously call has no will to exercise.
•Individuals are not responsible for their own decisions and actions… I will let this one slide.
•Justification occurs in eternity, not in time… ok what about election? Without election there is no
justification.
•God does not command all people to repent of sin… this has to be a Calvinist position becasue if
God is sovereign and He commands something, then it will be done.
•Not everyone is required to believe upon Christ Jesus for salvation… this is a Christian doctrine for
those who do not believe are not saved. I may be missing something here???
•God creates unbelief in the hearts of the non-elect… we both know this is not true… for you
cannot kill a dead man!
•Assurance of election must be sought prior to repentance and faith… again a play on words
here… if assurance of election is defined as regeneration then the Calvinist has a problem.
•Election is evident simply by a profession of faith, regardless of sanctification (antinomianism)
This is a sad indightment period… no remotely responsible Christian would advocate
such a loose form of Christianity… such a sad thing to pay at someone that we disagree
with… at least theologically… may be some guilty but not most.
•Saving faith is equivalent to believing predestination (only “Calvinists” are Christians) that ought to
be a relief to MOST Calvinists… for many are saved without even knowing anything
about RT… seems that RT goes after those who have already been “enlightenned” and
then converts them! OK… that was a cheap shot… but accurate…
•Limited atonement must be believed in order to hear the gospel and be saved… this is goobly
goop for any Calvinist… regeneration jump starts the dead batteries so it does not matter
what one believes PRIOR to regeneration…
•Salvation is not connected with the “visible” Church**
•Scripture is to be interpreted only by individuals, not by the Church** hum… sounds like soul
competency just went out the window for the Calvinist… and elders are in… because that
poor guy sittin in the pew is not as enlightenned as the feller behind the pulpit… oh my!
Poor Baptist position here.
•Evangelism is unnecessary, or even wrong…
•The sacraments are not a means of grace, but rather obstacles to salvation by faith alone**
•God has no love whatsoever for humanity in His providence (common grace)… this one is kind of
difficult as well.. since Jesus said no greater love has any man than to lay down his life for
his friends… for the calvinist Jesus did not lay His life down for humanity… plus common
grace is not a Biblical term… I could be wrong but grace is always singular in the Bible but
is always plural to Calvinists.
I am a simple minded guy… and am having a real hard time comprehending this whole Calvinist thing and I really am confused about who is and who is not a Calvinist… and how a person can be almost Calvinist… to me that is like saying someone can be almost pregnant… to me either a person is a Calvinist or he (or she dont want to offend anyone) is not.
If a person beleives that regeneration predeeds faith and repentance then that would make them a Calvinist. If they do not believe that, then to me that means they are NOT a Calvinist. Simple test there. All this other stuff kind of seems to create a nice smple screen to cloud thngs even more than they already are… Hope I did not mispell too many words or use too many fragmented sentences… I am not proofin this one!
Grateful to be in His Grip!
>
Dr. James Galyon
July 21, 2011 at 9:46 pm
Bob,
Hope I can bring a bit of clarity to you on the issue…
Supralapsarians are not universalists. They do not deny the Fall altogether, they just believe God determined to choose some to salvation prior to determining the Fall.
I don’t believe Calvinists have to dance around God as the author of sin and evil at all because historic Calvinists have always denied that God is the author of sin and evil.
While you may get some differences of opinion, historic Calvinists have always held that individuals have free will (as defined generally by St. Augustine, Martin Luther, and Jonathan Edwards). Free will is the ability to do what one desires. The problem, as Calvinists see it, is not what God has failed to do (e.g., regeneration), but what fallen human beings desire to do. They desire sin, and do not desire that which is spiritually good unless the Holy Spirit brings about a change of heart.
Regarding eternal justification – hyper-Calvinists hold that the elect are justified even before they are born. Historic Calvinists believe the elect come to the point of justification at the time they place their faith in Christ Jesus.
The historic Calvinist position is that God commands all people to repent of sin. I believe you have confused God’s command with God’s decree, which is not hard to do when considering the matter of “God’s will.” The Scriptures speak of God’s will in more than one way. His decretive will is that which He has determined will come to pass. If God had no decretive will, then prophecy wouldn’t be fulfilled. His moral will is that which is revealed in His Law, such as “Thou shalt not kill.” God commands people not to murder, yet some still commit murder. Does this mean God is no longer sovereign? Not at all. A simple reading of Acts 2:23 shows God’s decretive will being fulfilled why His moral will is being broken. Last of all there is God’s will of disposition, which is God’s desire. God doesn’t desire the death of the wicked. He desires people to come to repentance. He wants people to keep His commands. So, God commands all people to repent of sin — that is a moral command given to every person on the planet.
Some hyper-Calvinists believe that the non-elect are not required (commanded) to believe upon Christ for salvation.
You can’t kill a dead man, but a dead man is a man without life, not a man without existence. There is a difference. After all, some will face eternal death. They will not have eternal life, but they still have eternal existence.
I agree with you, no responsible Christ would advocate antinomianism. Nonetheless, lawlessness is still a mark of some hyper-Calvinistic teaching.
You may say “soul competency” went out the window, but such a doctrine didn’t exist prior to the early 20th century when it was advocated by E. Y. Mullins. This is not to say that individuals aren’t to interpret the Scripture, however, it is saying that the Church as a whole has something to say about what Scripture has taught for the past 2,000 years. We cannot ignore history while catapulting the individual above the Church as a whole. Is “that poor guy sittin in the pew” in the positi9on of that “feller behind the pulpit”? Doesn’t Scripture say that pastors are to have the gift of teaching, and that they are to labor in word and doctrine in order that the guy in the pew may no longer be tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine? Has the guy in the pew studied Hebrew and Greek? Hermeneutics? Church history? Or did that feller in the pulpit just waste his time and money on all that edumacation? In fact, why even have a pulpit? Why not just sit in a circle in the sanctuary and let everyone tell everyone else, “This is what this passage means to me”?
Actually, for the historic Calvinist Jesus did lay down His life for humanity. You can check out other posts on 2WC on that point.
Thanks for dropping by 2WC!