A Heretic?
It seems I have stirred the proverbial hornets’ nest recently with several posts related to regeneration (‘“Born Again” in the SBC’; ‘Whitefield and the New Birth’; ‘You Must Be Born Again’; and Theology on Thursday [C. H. Spurgeon, ‘Faith and Regeneration’]). Peter Lumpkins, for example, stated, “James Galyon continues to cook up some good old-fashioned Founders stew concerning the non-negotiable dogma Founders will never drop—one must be born again in order to believe in Jesus Christ.” Mr. Lumpkins and I shared comments back and forth discussing the issue, amiably so (for which I am glad). I even edited one of my posts (“You Must Be Born Again”) when Peter believed I had slighted him and non-Reformed Southern Baptists as heretics. It certainly was not my intention to even imply such a thing. As a show of Christian courtesy, and to insure I wasn’t misrepresenting anyone’s personal views, I altered the material so that any perception of implication was removed. In an effort to also refrain from offending those who hold to what has often been termed “decisional regeneration,” the same article was edited so the phrase “conditional regeneration” was employed instead. Soon thereafter the Calvinist Flyswatter told of my “aberration” in “misconstruing Dr. Dagg’s views as well as those of C. H. Spurgeon.” Bob Ross added, “Since the Flounders and men such as James Galyon flounderously continue to try to exploit both Dr. Dagg and Dr. Carroll to promote essential ‘Hardshell’ doctrine, we will continue to expose this misrepresentation as well as their Hybrid Calvinism heresy on what they call ‘regeneration.’” None of my recent posts regarding regeneration even mentioned B. H. Carroll. The most recent edition of Theology on Thursday was merely a posting of Spurgeon’s sermon in full. There was no added commentary or editing (such as added emphasis) to demonstrate “regeneration precedes faith.” Of course, Ross’ rebuttal of my post selectively quoted Dagg and failed to interact with the Dagg material which I presented. He also completely ignored the quotes I supplied from John Broadus, James P. Boyce, and ‘The Abstract of Principles’.
The thing I wonder is this – where in any of these posts have I declared as “non-negotiable dogma” that “one must be born again in order to believe in Jesus Christ”? I certainly defended the “regeneration precedes faith” position, neither as non-negotiable dogma nor as my own theological hobby horse, but as one consistent within the parameters of Southern Baptist history and belief. I did so in order as a matter of honoring my Calvinistic brothers and sisters who strongly hold that position because of a desire to see them treated as orthodox Christians within the boundaries of the SBC. That defense has yet to be demonstrated as deficient.
In regard to my views regarding regeneration, Mr. Lumpkins simply assumed I was writing in an attempt to defend the regeneration precedes faith position at all costs. He noted my “attempt to employ Scripture to prove his position himself. However, as many Calvinists like to do at times, the exposition required is assumed, not argued. For example, like other Calvinists of Galyon’s brand, Lydia’s ‘open heart’ is offered as a proof text for her being born again prior to saving faith being employed (Acts 16:14). The fact is, however, the text says absolutely nothing about regeneration. Nothing. It says God opened her heart. What non-Calvinist argues God does not open a person’s heart to hear the Word of God?” For one thing, the portion of the post to which Mr. Lumpkins refers was not an attempted exposition of the declared passages. Rather, I was stating what I believed about the process of the new birth and placing Scripture references in italics to simply indicate the biblical reasons for why I believe such things about that process. Had I attempted an exposition, I would have certainly pointed to 1 John 5:1 for such a defense. The Apostle John declares, “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God.” The verb “has been born” (γεγέννηται) is the perfect tense of γεννάω. The perfect tense denotes an action preceding the human action of believing (πιστεύων). However, the thrust of the post was not to prove such a point, but to show there is a great deal of mystery involved with the process of the new birth and that we should stand amazed at God’s great grace in our lives in bringing it to pass. I certainly heard, on more than one occasion from SBC seminary professors, that “Lydia opened her heart to God” because “Paul was persuasive.” So, there are at least some Southern Baptist non-Calvinists who believe it is the work of individuals to open their own hearts to God. This echoes Charles G. Finney’s exhortation that sinners are bound to change their own hearts.
I’m not certain whether Mr. Ross actually read the post(s) or not, mainly because his rebuttal emphasizes at one point (in red bold print) that “God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul.” Had he bothered to read my work it would have been evident I argue strongly for just that fact. Ross later contends, “It is clear that Dr. Dagg taught that spiritual faith, which is brought about by the Word applied by the Holy Spirit…. It is also clear that Dagg taught that the Word is the ‘instrument’ the Spirit uses in regeneration.” (emphasis original) Ross castigates men such as me for refusing to believe the new birth is brought about by the Holy Spirit applying His Word. Such a castigation is baseless, obviously, in the face of the evidence. Ross has yet to criticize men such as Paige Patterson, whose position is very similar to my own. Patterson confessed several years ago, “I am uncomfortable with preceding repentance and faith by regeneration,” but then added, “although I am equally uncomfortable with preceding regeneration by repentance and faith. I see it all as something that happens in a nanosecond…. that can never come to pass as a coincidence of any set of human actions, however you want to define that…. If it happens, it happens…by the vivifying presence and power of the Holy Spirit.”
The Necessity of Real Regeneration
In the comment section on SBC Tomorrow it was noted, “the phrase ‘decisional regeneration’ as it comes from the pen of Jay Adams is defined with a faulty premise.” The pastor of Cornerstone Church in Mesa, Arizona, Dr. James E. Adams is the author of “Decisional Regeneration” (not nouthetic counselor Dr. Jay E. Adams). Pastor Adams contends “decisional regeneration” views the new birth as the result of a mechanical process performed by an individual. Adams also contends this practice “must be exposed in order to save men from the damning delusion that because they have decided” or “signed a card,” they are saved. Adams asks, “Can a man be born again by answering ‘yes’ to a certain group of questions? Can a man be born from ‘above’ by walking to the front of a building?” Peter Lumpkins responds, “Dr. Galyon, clearly Adams’ diatribe is an inexcusable, unstudied mockery of every non-Calvinist I know–including myself–pertaining to our view of regeneration. And, he dubs our alleged view ‘decisional regeneration.’” He goes on to state, “What non-Calvinist has not had to tortuously [sic] endure the junior-high theological idiocy of their view trampled as a ‘mechanical process’ which ‘man performs’ in order to ‘save himself? And, of course the rhetorical questions which, once again, possess no resemblance to their view, questions like: ‘Can a man be saved by ‘making a decision’ or ‘signing a card’ or ‘walking an aisle’ or ‘saying a specific prayer’?”
While one may certainly hold to conditional regeneration and not view the new birth as a mere mechanical motion (i.e., Lumpkins), is Adams’ contention regarding the theology (or lack thereof) surrounding many contemporary evangelistic practices unfounded? I believe his work, perhaps in need of editing and re-wording, is nonetheless a genuine plea to emphasize the supernatural aspect of the new birth (particularly in evangelistic practice). Are there individuals within evangelical congregations who believe the new birth comes about as a result of their decisions, answers, actions, etc.? Are there pastors and evangelists who believe such? Are there lost people filling the pews of evangelical congregations, Hell-bound with a false sense of security because they repeated a prayer and wrote a date down in their Bibles? Considering the fact that Billy Graham famously quipped that the church is one of the greatest mission fields today, perhaps Adams’ contention should be heeded. Paige Patterson, who is not the biggest fan of Calvinism, to say the least, was interviewed by Mark Dever several years ago. The interview contained this bit of conversation regarding the topic at hand:
Dever: So on evangelism I am hugely concerned that some of the ways that we’ve done evangelism have actually been some of the things that have most damaged our attempts to spread the gospel. In other words, if I simply share the gospel with somebody, lead them in praying to receive Christ, and then quote 1 John 1:9 to assure them that if they confess their sins that they’re forgiven, and ask them, ‘Have you confessed your sins?’ and they say, ‘Yes, I just did,’ and I respond, ‘Then you’re forgiven. If you doubt that you doubt the word of God.’ I fear that we have filled up our churches with millions and millions of people who genuinely don’t know Jesus from a hole in the wall. They give every evidence of it in their lives, and we preachers and pastors are partly to blame for the way we’ve done the evangelism. I’m not talking about all the preachers who are not obedient in doing evangelism at all. You know, there was the Great Awakening rejoinder that somebody said, ‘I’d rather do my poor evangelism than your no evangelism.’ Well, me too. But, for those who are doing evangelism, it does seem to me like there are a lot of people sitting in our churches who think they are going to heaven. Well, they’re sitting on our rolls but they don’t sit in our churches, and some who sit in our churches don’t really seem to know the Lord.
Patterson: Regrettably I have to believe that anytime you stand up and face a congregation these days in the average church you’re looking at 30-40% that have never been born again and are not genuinely saved.
Dever: You mean in the evangelical church?
Patterson: I’m talking about in Baptist churches where we supposedly emphasize nothing in the world but regeneration. Lord knows what it is in some others, but I think that’s true of us and I think it’s because we have been very careless. We’ve been more concerned about numbers to report to the denominational press than we have been about genuine conversion. So, yes, I’m very concerned about it. Matter of fact, I’ve got to where, going into churches, I preach hardly anything else but the new birth anymore from one of 18-20 passages that I work from, just because I’m so concerned about that. So, yes, I do share your concern about that. It can’t be any other way for us to have as much of the world in the pew as we presently have.
It seems to me that the concerns of Dever (a Calvinist) and Patterson (a non-Calvinist) are in line with those of Adams. The concern is that individuals be truly born again, actually converted, and not just added to the membership rolls of a congregation because they utter a prayer or walk an aisle. These are valid concerns with eternal consequences.
In my post regarding “Whitefield and the New Birth”, I concluded:
“What may modern evangelicals learn from Whitefield? First, that it is the power of the Holy Spirit using His Word – not gimmicks, giveaways, or the uttering of simplistic formulas (e.g, Accept / Believe / Confess) – which God uses to bring about the new birth (1 Corinthians 1:18-2:5). Second, that the new birth is of divine origin. Human beings have neither the power nor the ability to raise themselves from spiritual death to attain spiritual life (John 3:3-8). Third, that conversion – the reality of experiencing the new birth – means life-transformation. Those who profess Christ but live like the devil have no part of the Kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:9-11).”
This is nothing with which biblical non-Calvinists should contend. Wesley himself, not to mention Paige Patterson, expressed views keeping in line with these three points. This is not a Reformed issue of defending Calvinistic dogma. It is an evangelical issue of defending the reality of the life-changing, life-giving gospel of Jesus Christ.

Bob Cleveland
August 15, 2009 at 7:47 am
I find a lot amusing in the discussion of regeneration, and when it occurs. I mean, what does 1 Corinthians 2:14 mean if it does NOT mean that God has to do something to you BEFORE you can perceive things of the Spirit?
Is the new birth something which follows your faith? It seems to me that belief is something the new creature is capable of, but not the old creature (which seems, to me, to be the natural man who cannot perceive the things of the Spirit, essential to salvation).
Or not. What do I know?
James Galyon
August 15, 2009 at 9:30 am
Bob:
What do you know? Apparently, your Bible.
TheDeeZone
August 15, 2009 at 10:34 am
James,
What you did wrong was state an opposing opinion. It seems that some are more concerned about being in control and everyone believing exactly as they do.
As for this whole Calvinist mess I suggest those who try to claim Calvinism is not a historical Baptist belief or Anti-Baptist read McBeth’s book.
While I don’t agree with everything you have written. I haven’t read anything I believe is heretical.
Dr. James Galyon
August 15, 2009 at 11:39 am
Dee:
I think you may be right. As for the whole mess, yes, Dr. McBeth’s book would be a fine place to begin in regard to Baptist history. While you don’t agree with everything I have written, I appreciate you permitting me some leniency and not castigating me as a heretic.
thomastwitchell
August 15, 2009 at 10:38 am
There are just too many Scriptures that declare that the flesh cannot receive the things of the Spirit. It requires a new man, Bob. You’re correct.
While it is true that the Holy Spirit applies the word preached to the new man and is therefore an instrument, that is, a means by which the reality of salvation is demonstrated, we at the same time must be careful not to make the word instrumental as if it were an occult tool. It is that which births the error that either by the persuasive speech of the preacher or by the acuity of the hearer that regeneration is effected.
While many speak of the simultaneity of the experience as if the experience makes them one and the same occurance, not all of us have done so, or do. Visit my site for my most recent piece on this subject. I will be posting on Calvin’s view. The right view is that regeneration always precedes the application of the word for there is nothing to apply it to until the new creation is established. This has always been the Biblical view.
To repeat so that none take it that conversion ever takes place without the word producing faith: faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. But that should not be confused so as to make the word instrumental. When a person makes it so what procedes from that is the belief that how one handles the word in either preaching or receiving it is what produces the new birth. But the new birth is apart from but not without the word. It is as Jesus said, the effects of the wind are not the wind. As we hold, the new birth comes from above renewing the man, his mind and his affections so that when the word is preached he freely embraces Christ. The non-Calvinist generally takes Arminius’ view that it is the will that is regenerated as an instrument of choice and that accomplished by the removal of hinderances to the word through the ‘suasion of the word. To the contrary of that, the Calvinistic position is that the will is the passive agent and responds as it has been, past tense, united to Christ. Or as JEdwards said, the will is the mind choosing. And of course the mind of Christ always does the will of the Father who he always beholds. A renewed nature with the attendent renewed mind (the mind of Christ, etc) and the love of God shed abroad in our hearts, is what moves the will. In that way the will is renewed. Far from being a matter of a resistable thing, there is nothing in the new creation which is at emnity toward God. It is that which the non-Calvinist hates. Without the ability to hate God they feel slighted and diminshed in their freedom and so also their humanity. We on the other hand find the freedom from hatred of God to be the true meaning of regeneration and the driving force of our spiritual passion.
TheDeeZone
August 15, 2009 at 1:41 pm
James,
Why would I? There are just more important things. As Nate told our students the other day in Bible study some things are non-negotiable and others are. It is important to know the difference.
Meanwhile the “leaders” trying to purge the SBC of non-conformist should wake up, check out who’s leaving the church and not coming back.
peter lumpkins
August 16, 2009 at 12:36 am
James.
Actually I thought this was kinda settled. I suppose I was wrong.
First, you mentioned you edited the post as a result of my belief that you “slighted” me and others as heretics. Interesting. I thought you were actually sincere when you apologized: “Pardon me for not presenting your view regarding the new birth accurately.” All know, by the way, I neither requested an edit nor an apology (not insinuating you implied such). You chose to do so because you were not clear and desired to “reword” and “rethink” your essay (I thought).
Second, James, I’m afraid you continue to be all over the map for me. Pertaining to regeneration precedes faith (RPF), you say you “defended” the position not only as “consistent” within “Southern Baptist history and belief” but also in “honoring [your] Calvinistic brothers and sisters,” as “orthodox Christians,” the defense of which has “yet to be demonstrated as deficient.”
Thus far, James, you make it appear the sole interest you have in presenting your views is singularly historical accuracy. That’s hardly the impression I get as I hope to show.
You then take issue with my assertion you employed Scripture to “prove” RPF by denying you were doing exposition (as I wrongly assumed) but only stating “the process of the new birth”—in your view—by offering Scripture references to indicate ”biblical reasons” for why you believe that process.
First, James, my words concerning your section on Scripture I wrote were “the exposition required is assumed, not argued.” So, the practice of your placing Scripture references indicative of your “biblical reasons” showing “why” you hold a position, and citing the verses without commentary, cannot be legitimately described as “the exposition required is assumed, not argued”? Doesn’t square, James. Sorry.
Even more, you contend you cited several verses to state what you believed about the process of the new birth, indicating the biblical reasons for believing the particular process you offer, but then you conclude the “thrust” was to show there is a great deal of mystery involved with the process of the new birth.
Now, let me see if I understand: your position is there are valid biblical reasons indicating a process but there is a great deal of mystery involved within the process? For me, this makes little sense. To be even stronger, you say, “So rather than trying to explain [the process, which contains a bit of mystery], may we simply receive what God has declared in Holy Scripture” (emphasis mine). Now, I agree there is mystery involved in regeneration’s process.
My question is, James, where did you so much as hint about any aspect of mystery in your declaration of what you believe to be is the biblical process of the new birth? I missed it if you so mentioned any.
True you mentioned John 3 and “mystery” in the beginning. Granted. Nevertheless, mystery concerning the new birth factualness is not the same as mystery concerning the new birth process–the process of which you insist is spelled out quite nicely in many Scriptures, Scriptures offering “biblical reasons” to justify your belief of the particular process of being born again.
Furthermore, you not only move beyond historical accuracy as reason for arguing the RPF case (see first above), but bluntly state, concerning the process you offer through biblical citation, that we should simply receive what God has declared in Holy Scripture. I agree. But this is precisely why I mentioned you being all over the map, James.
On one hand, you appeal to mystery; then, you turn right around and offer a biblical process. Afterwards, you exhort we should simply receive what God declares in Scripture, Scripture about which you claim you offered no exposition but only offered the verses as “biblical reasons” for the process of the new birth, insisting at the same time you’re doing this not to so much as to state your position but to argue RPF is both within Southern Baptist history and, for your fellow Calvinists, orthodox. This is why I’m having a really difficult time following what’s going on here.
I’d like to stop right now. However, there are a few further things, I’m afraid.
For example, you assert: “Had I attempted an exposition, I would have certainly pointed to 1 John 5:1 for such a defense” (emphasis added). Afterward, you offer some exegesis and conclude, “The perfect tense denotes an action preceding the human action of believing (πιστεύων).”
Well, James, you did point to 1 John 5:1 (in conjunction with John 1:12-13) in the post in question. And while you did not cite the Greek, you concluded thusly: “If you are a believer, you were born again, not as a result of your will or the will of another human being, but because of the will of God. (John 1:12-13) Saving faith was awakened as a result of the new birth (1 John 5:1)” (emphasis added). Hence, the plea you were not “attempting exposition” seems to me, to be slightly hollow.
Additionally, after citing 1John 5:1 on the post I critiqued, you concluded “without reservation” faith happened as a part of God’s simultaneous work of quickening. However, on this present post, you cite as a defense “The perfect tense denotes an action [i.e. new birth] preceding the human action of believing (πιστεύων)” (emphasis added).
Adding to confusion, on the post in question, you log on the comment thread to “J.C.”, “I do believe regeneration precedes faith temporally, but so closely that it is essentially simultaneous…traveling at the speed of light type of deal” (emphasis added). How you conclude “without reservation” a “simultaneous” work of the Spirit and faith by citing a verse of Scripture which, according to your own exegesis, denotes a definitive action [i.e. new birth] preceding faith—albeit temporally preceding, but preceding nonetheless–does not compute, James.
A few more miscellaneous items and I’m done.
Interestingly, you made it sound like Ian Elsasser was the lone culprit in confusing Jay Adams with James Adams, a confusion you cleared up with this post. The fact is, however, one of Jay Adams affiliates cleared this up on my blog.
Even more significant, while Ian did confuse “Jay” with “James” (and apologized on my thread for the confusion he started), both you and I bit the bait and swallowed hook and all!
To my question to you if you’d read the tract by Jay Adams Ian had posted, you responded: “It has been quite some time (over a decade?) since I read Jay Adams’ tract.”
We all make factual mistakes now and then. I certainly do. But under these circumstances, James, it’s entirely unfair to create the appearance you set the record straight, leaving Ian holding the dirty dish water. Not cool.
Also, you wrongly attribute a quote to Ian which were my words, not his: “Mr. Elasser responds, “Dr. Galyon, clearly Adams’ diatribe is an inexcusable, unstudied mockery of every non-Calvinist I know–including myself–pertaining to our view of regeneration. And, he dubs our alleged view ‘decisional regeneration.’” That would be me, sir. Hence, the later echo was from me not Ian.
But consider your curious questions: “is Adams’ contention regarding the theology (or lack thereof) surrouding [sic] many contemporary evangelistic practices unfounded? I believe his work, perhaps in need of editing and re-wording, is nonetheless a genuine plea to emphasize the supernatural aspect of the new birth (particulary [sic] in evangelistic practice). Are there individuals within evangelical congregations who believe the new birth comes about as a result of their decisions, answers, actions, etc.?”
First, James, my assertion was and still is, Adams’ diatribe is an inexcusable, unstudied mockery of every non-Calvinist I know–including myself–pertaining to our view of regeneration. I cited my sphere for my statement and it was specific.
Even so, while you edited your post because you desired it to more accurately reflect my view by dropping the derisive term “decisional regeneration” which Adams employed, you nevertheless turn right around and defend the content of “decisional regeneration” as being relevant after all. And, just what is your evidence? There must be someone, somewhere who believes what Adams is saying! (While you later mention two well-known Southern Baptists, neither cited the caricature Adams fabricated and hence, neither is relevant.)
Oh my…
What you have just managed to do is argue for the viability of just about any theological caricature one may image, based on somebody believing it. Just let a non-Calvinist bring up the dreaded “hyper-Calvinist,” citing as evidence that there must be Calvinists somewhere who believe such: “I heard a professor say…” Indeed, given what you’ve just argued, how Morris Chapman was taken to task over his statements is too fantastic to consider.
My impression is, the more I’m reading on this issue coming from your keypad, James, there’s entirely too much confusion. I half-way think you’re attempting to argue two sides at the same time, but I can’t be sure. I do know it’s be best to stick with one position or the other.
And, I also must consider it’s my old age getting the best of me. Sorry, for the length.
With that, I am…
Peter
peter lumpkins
August 16, 2009 at 5:46 am
James,
You may disregard the former comment if you wish. I think I’ll go ahead and make a main post on my blog. Since you feel your writings keep stirring up “hornets” and “flies” I would not want to disappoint you ;^]
With that, I am…
Peter
James Galyon
August 16, 2009 at 9:35 am
Peter:
There’s no attempt here to make a caricature of your position. There’s a plea here to emphasize the supernatural aspect of the new birth, to emphasize the necessity of authentic conversion. “The concern is that individuals be truly born again, actually converted, and not just added to the membership rolls of a congregation because they utter a prayer or walk an aisle. These are valid concerns with eternal consequences.” This is the main concern – a concern shared by Spurgeon, Patterson, Adams, and Dever. Is it a concern for you?
peter lumpkins
August 16, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Dr. Galyon,
Thanks for the reply.
I’ll simply say if all you got from my former comment is my supposed quest for assurance that there’s no attempt to make a caricature of my position, it remains evident perhaps why too few genuine conversations take place between Calvinists and non-Calvinists on Baptistnet.
I trust your evening well.
With that, I am…
Peter
Dr. James Galyon
August 16, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Peter:
You say Adams’ “diatribe is an inexcusable, unstudied mockery of every non-Calvinist I know–including myself–pertaining to our view of regeneration.” Granted that Adams’ work may be unfair to Reformational Arminians or those with a similar understanding of the new birth, does that make his assertion regarding much contemporary evangelism unfair? You ask, “What is your evidence?” How about the millions of Southern Baptists, not to mention other evangelicals, whose names are on membership rolls but who care nothing for being a regular part of Christ’s body and participating in Christ’s fellowship? Neither Billy Graham nor Paige Patterson are relevant on this point? I beg to differ. I believe we must emphasize the supernatural reality of the new birth, much like Whitefield and Wesley both did. Do I think Calvinists should go around declaring, “Regeneration precedes faith!” to the lost? No, I believe they should proclaim, as did the Apostles, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved!” Do I think non-Calvinists should go around declaring, “Faith precedes regeneration!” to the lost? No, I believe they should proclaim, as did the Apostles, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved!” Should folks in either camp proclaim this message in their own power or with their own eloquence? No, it must be proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. What should we teach our church people, in general, about the new birth? That it is God’s work, that it is necessary to salvation, and that it means life-transformation. Can you agree to those three things?
peter lumpkins
August 17, 2009 at 4:19 am
James,
You write, “Granted that Adams’ work may be unfair to Reformational Arminians or those with a similar understanding of the new birth” and then ask “does that make his assertion regarding much contemporary evangelism unfair?”
First, I have not mentioned anywhere “Reformational Arminians” so granting unfairness to them is supposed to do what, exactly? Second, “those with a similar understanding of the new birth” will have to be defined. Recall: you made a hard distinction in your post, separating Arminians (Reformational?) from others. Hence, when you say similar understanding I don’t know how to respond. Third, even granting both qualifications above fails to rescue Adams’ pamphlet from theological mockery.
Frankly, I’m surprised a trained theologian continues in his attempt to salvage what may be the quintessential case of theological hubris. Do you not see Adams is making a sharp, non-negotiable barrier between his “Reformed” regeneration and all other views? On the one side is the “Reformed” view which is “The Biblical” view, his view. And, on the other side is error. Hence, fill the other side in with as many qualifications as you like. His tract remains unsophisticated yet quite judgmental diatribe.
And, you may differ as you wish, Dr. Galyon, concerning the men you mentioned and their relative importance . Nonetheless your point still lacks teeth for the simple reason the quotes you offered are not necessarily indicative of the caricature Adams presented. Just because a congregation might have–let’s be conservative–60% unregenerate people sitting in it makes no definitive statement whatsoever concerning what the 60% believe about the new birth (whether it’s ‘mechanical’) or why they are deluded (if they are) about being saved (‘shook preacher’s hand’, ‘said a pat prayer’, ‘walked an aisle’ ‘filled out a card’ etc.). It simply does not bite, Dr. Galyon.
Brother, I’ve been preaching those ‘three things’ 28 years. And, if God be pleased, I’ll preach them till no breathe is left in this tired old body.
The question is, Dr. Galyon, if certain Calvinists will cease their continued lampooning, non-negotiable dogma of insisting the new birth precedes saving faith or else the person possesses a works-oriented, human-centered, mechanistic, man-made, self-saved religion. As long as these particular Calvinists are obnoxiously badgering non-Calvinists in the SBC with this arrogant theological gloat, I will remain an activist till I die or Jesus comes.
With that, I am…
Peter
Dr. James Galyon
August 17, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Peter:
You didn’t bring up ‘Reformational Arminians. Never said you did. The matter regarding Reformational Arminians has to do with the materials I have posted. You say I made a “hard distinction… separating Arminians from others.” I suggest you go back and read the post. I definitely made a distinction between four different views, yet I also noted the similarities between historic Arminianism with Reformed thought.
One of my main contentions is that there needs to be an emphasis upon the divine aspect of the new birth, and that the new birth brings transformation. I don’t know where you stand on the “Lordship Salvation” issue (for lack of a better term), but it seems as if you may be uncomfortable with that view. Is that correct or incorrect?
Tell me, Peter, have I lampooned anyone here? Have I insisted upon regeneration preceding faith as non-negotiable dogma? Tell me also, please, if there are any non-Calvinists who are guilty of “obnoxiously badgering” Calvinists in the SBC with “arrogant theological gloat”? I have no doubt you will remain an “activist,” Peter. It is my hope that you will work actively for peace and unity within the Body of Christ, that you will be an activist for the sake of Christ’s kingdom and His people.
TheDeeZone
August 17, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Peter,
Wouldn’t it be better to be an activist at reaching those under 30 before we lose an entire generation? Many are leaving and not returning to any church.
peter
August 18, 2009 at 5:03 am
James,
Pursuing a dialog with you is getting to be taxing. Look, the term “Reformational Armininism” on this comment thread is the first time I’ve even seen this in our entire exchange, James. Nor is it in the original post as I recall. Nor does Adams mention it. Instead it’s you who bring it up, in “Granted that Adams’ work may be unfair to Reformational Arminians.” (perhaps a better term is to employ Reformed Arminian).
As for reading your post again, what gives you the impression I misread it? You did not make the distinction on the post in question you are now attempting to make, James. Like I said, you failed to mention “Reformational” Arminianism, just Arminianism, which is precisely why I mentioned the “hard distinction.” Apart from Augustinianism, Arminianism is distinguished from both pelagianism and semi-pelagianism. May I add, not too many Founders advocates are as generous as you.
Lordship salvation? Why on earth would you even bring this up, James? That’s one reason exchanging with you is taxing. Out of thin air you pull new terms. On the last comment, it was “Reformational Arminianism.” Now it’s “Lordship Salvation.” Perhaps next it’s whether I hold to creationism or traducianism which surely has a bearing on the present exchange.
Nor is the question relevant concerning you “lampooning” since I’ve not expressed a single hint you have. Thus far it’s been about ideas.
With that, I am…
Peter
peter
August 18, 2009 at 5:07 am
Dee
Thank you.
Why would you assume that because I refuse to allow bullying, aggressive Calvinists a free-pass to enter non-Calvinist churches and “reform” their church, that I hold no passionate concern for those under thirty?
Have a good morning.
With that, I am…
Peter
TheDeeZone
August 18, 2009 at 4:50 pm
Peter,
Not assuming anything but rather responding to your comment.
D.
James Galyon
August 18, 2009 at 6:52 am
Peter:
You’re right, my friend, “Reformational Arminianism” was used by me for the first time in our comment thread. I often use that term when speaking of Classical Arminianism. It got thrown out there.
In my original post I noted, “Historic Arminianism, on the other hand, bears resemblance to Reformed soteriology on several levels. Distinct from both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, which view depravity as partial or non-existent, it could be termed ‘semi-Augustinianism’ because it deems depravity as absolute.” I go on to describe the position in a bit more detail. Please note I speak of this position bearing resemblance, I speak of the similarities in the views regarding depravity, divine initiative, etc. So, yes, I make the distinction, yet I also showed the common ground. That is why I disputed the “hard” distinction. I didn’t state anything such as, “Augustinianism is pure biblical doctrine while these other three positions are absolute heresy.” Perhaps that is not what you meant by “hard” distinction, but that is how I took it. There is a difference between distinction and hard distinction. I certainly would not say Augustinianism and Arminianism can be equated. As I’ve noted previously, I spoke of four completely different positions.
Why did I bring up Lordship Salvation? Because it seems as though you are uncomfortable with touching upon the subject of evangelism/regenerate church membership. You’ve said those topics, and the quotes from Graham and Patterson, have no bearing on the subject. I believe they do. What is our view of the new birth? Do we believe it is “mechanical” or divine? If people believe it is “mechanical” (and I don’t think that is your position), will that not affect the way they speak of the new birth and do evangelism? I’m not trying to lampoon anyone, Peter. When I read Spurgeon, Whitefield, and Wesley — all great evangelists — I read men who preached on the subject with tremendous strength. Paige Patterson noted in that quote something to the effect, “We’re supposed to be teaching the new birth”, but laments the state of many congregations. I believe we need to emphasize the fact that individuals are absolutely dependent upon God – as did Spurgeon, Whitefield, and Wesley. Please note I’m not saying, “Look only to these stalwart Calvinists.” I’m noting great evangelists who agreed on particular doctrines. That is what I hope to see within evangelicalism and the SBC.
As far as the lampooning question, you threw that out in your commentary above. You did say “certain Calvinists”, but how am I to know whether or not the reference included me? Therefore I asked the questions. Fair enough?
peter
August 19, 2009 at 4:55 am
Dee,
Thanks for the response. Your question was: “Wouldn’t it be better to be an activist at reaching those under 30 before we lose an entire generation?” Unless the question was intended for someone else, Dee, your assumption seems to be, my self-description as an “activist” does not entail reaching those under thirty. If there is “no assumption” of something similar, the question becomes meaningless. Sorry.
With that, I am…
Peter
TheDeeZone
August 19, 2009 at 11:31 am
Peter,
Since my opinions are deemed meaningless and obviously only your opinion matters I find this discussion pointless.
D.
peter
August 19, 2009 at 5:46 am
Dr. Galyon,
—”So, yes, I make the distinction”
—”yet I also showed the common ground”
—”That is why I disputed [Peter's] “hard” distinction.”
—”There is a difference between distinction and hard distinction.”
—”I spoke of four completely different positions.”
Consider: you reject my “hard” distinction because based on “common ground” there is only a “distinction” between four “completely different” positions. When you can show me, Dr. Galyon, how exploring the above any further will benefit either of us, I’ll be glad to oblige.
Now, my brother, it’s three new terms: “Reformational Arminianism,” “Lordship Salvation,” and now “regenerate church membership.” Will you ever stop? I don’t know. Your pattern appears to grab most anything that pops into your brain as we move along:
I honestly don’t have a clue to what you refer. I’ve said those topics, and the quotes from Graham and Patterson, have no bearing on the subject?
A) Show me one quote where I’ve mentioned either evangelism/regenerate church membership at all or if I did mention them, they offer no bearing on the subject (whatever you mean by subject)
B) I did not suggest the quotes you presented from these men have no bearing on the subject. Instead, I was very specific why your point possesses no bite:
Try as you may, an arsenal of quotes cannot rescue Adams’ tract, Dr. Galyon. It’s theological mockery to the enth degree. Now, if you desire to defend it, be my guest. But if you are going to make men like Dr. Patterson agree with him, you’re going to have to produce the goods. So far, you’ve produced jack squat.
Finally, if I think you personally are included in “certain” Calvinists about whom I write, I have no need to veil my complaint. Thus, if I write “certain,” please do not automatically assume you are personally the target.
With that, I am…
Peter
Dr. James Galyon
August 19, 2009 at 6:29 am
Peter:
I think there is benefit in showing the common ground. Rather than having both sides lobbing verbal grenades at one another on an ongoing basis, wouldn’t it be better if we pointed out where we have agreement? I’m not saying we have to completely ignore our differences, and pretend there aren’t any. Instead, while acknowledging those differences, we should treat those who differ from us – yet agree with us on foundational doctrines (i.e., justification, etc.) – with love and respect. I admire Whitefield for his stance. He stood his ground, yet showed love to those who differed from him. To paraphrase him loosely, “I love all them that love the Lord Jesus.”
peter
August 19, 2009 at 7:42 am
Dr. Galyon,
I couldn’t agree more about being able to love amidst disagreement.
As for “lobbing verbal grenades at one another on an ongoing basis” I’m confused. If you’re referring to the overall debate between Calvinists and non-Calvinists, there will be no meaningful exchange until tracts like “Decisional Regeneration” are thoroughly dismissed as irrelevant to our dialog.
The difficulty at this juncture is, Dr. Galyon, your sympathies appear too obviously–at least to me–to lie with the caricature Adams presents–defending the content of “Decisional Regeneration,” even if not the term–to the point of actually enlisting a non-Calvinist like Dr. Patterson to substantially support Adams’ analysis. If you will not outright dismiss such theological inaccuracies such as Adams portrays, then I would not get my hopes up you’ll draw a large amount of non-Calvinists who will be warm and fuzzy engaging the issue.
On the other hand, if you’re referring to you and me “lobbing verbal grenades at one another on an ongoing basis,” I’m not sure I agree. While I’ve expressed my frustration (being overly “taxing” to me was my term) concerning our dialog, I do not know I “lobbed” a “verbal grenade.” You’ll need to be specific.
Good day, Dr. Galyon.
With that, I am…
Peter
Dr. James Galyon
August 19, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Peter:
At least we agree on something, and something important at that!
In regard to “lobbing verbal grenades”, I was referring to the overall debate in general. To quote someone I read quite recently, “Please do not automatically assume you are personally the target.”
Do you believe there is a high percentage of unregenerate church members in SBC congregations? If so, then what do you believe are the factors contributing to such? The context of Dr. Patterson’s statements were in a discussion related to the new birth. Hence, the connection. You disagree with that link, obviously. You say my sympathies lie too obviously with the caricature Adams presents. The reality is my sympathies lie with the proclamations of Spurgeon in the sermon I posted recently, and with Whitefield. If you want to know what I believe and feel, look to the Whitefield post.
Good evening, Peter.
J.C. Thibodaux
August 19, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Dr. Galyon,
“The perfect tense denotes an action preceding the human action of believing (πιστεύων).”
I’ve examined that argument before, the grammatical construction of perfect tense combined with present tense doesn’t necessarily imply that the verb spoken in perfect tense precedes. For starters, that wouldn’t logically follow; if I were to say, “every car that is traveling on this road has passed that sign,” it wouldn’t follow that passing the sign preceded traveling on the road (it wouldn’t really indicate anything about a sequence). Nor do I think the rules of Greek grammar imply such a view, a rather similar structure is used in verse 10 of the same chapter,
“…he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.”
‘Has made’ is also perfect tense in conjunction with the present tense verb for ‘[not] believed.’ I don’t think the case can be reasonably made that making God out to be a liar must precede not believing according to that passage.
That said, I don’t think it’s exactly fair to label RPF as ‘heresy’ either. Some use the term to denote any error in doctrine, but the connotation is that the one who believes it is either unsaved, an enemy of the faith, or just ‘barely a Christian.’
Dr. James Galyon
August 19, 2009 at 6:38 pm
J.C.:
Brother, isn’t the Greek language fun? Is it a set rule? No. It is a pattern found in 1 John, though. Nonetheless, when all is said and done, I think you and I agree on a whole lot. Amen?
J.C. Thibodaux
August 20, 2009 at 8:07 am
So true. I wouldn’t state that it’s unfair to call your beliefs ‘heresy’ if I didn’t know we held the truly important things in common.
Dr. James Galyon
August 20, 2009 at 12:00 pm
J.C.,
In the same vein, I don’t believe it is fair or accurate when some Reformed folk refer to non-Calvinists/Arminians as heretics. May we press on together for our Lord and His Kingdom, brother!
Dr. James Galyon
August 21, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Just curious…which sounds like “lampooning” and “caricature” from a “bullying individual”, and which sounds “penetrating” yet not vitriolic?
1) “Peter Lumpkins indicates that he finds James ‘the Collider’ Galyon to be a ‘confusing’ writer…. While there is an abundance of confusion in Galyon’s writing, I think a better description of James is ‘Garbler.’ He seems to find a way to garble anything he touches — if it conflicts with the Pedbaptist [sic]Reformed Hybrid Calvinism (“regeneration precedes faith”) of which James is so obsessed…. And if one gets a little too tough on James’ views, he will accuse that person of the ‘appearance’ of ‘hatred’ and being ‘vitriolic,’ such as he alleges of me.”
(emphasis original)
2) “The methods and theology of those that practice ‘Decisional Regeneration’ need to be examined — not with a malicious spirit, but with a fervent desire that all of God’s people may be one in doctrine and practice for the glory of God. We love all that are in Christ…. So then our purpose is not to question the sincerity of some Christians or to malign them, but to unite Christians in the truth as it is in our Lord. This alone is true Christian unity…. The practice of ‘Decisional Regeneration’ in the Church must be exposed in order to save men from the damning delusion that because they have ‘decided’ or ‘signed a card,’ they are going to heaven and are no longer under the wrath of God. The purity of the gospel is of extreme importance because it alone is the power of God unto salvation and the true basis of Christian unity.”