An article discussing the doctrine of particular redemption, termed popularly as “limited atonement,” appeared in The Church Advocate. It stated:
“It is found in ancient books on divinity, written in a sterner age, and when the principles of interpretation were less understood, and the large and literal nature of the gospel was less appreciated. It is petrified in certain creeds maintained by the church – made firm, like fossil remains in a transition state, when ancient opinions were passing to a more liberal form. It is taught in a few seminaries, where men feel themselves constrained to repress the warm emotions of their own minds to reach conclusions which they can scarcely avoid. But the doctrine is not preached, except when the heart is cold and dead. It is not preached when the soul is on fire with the love of men, and when the cross, in its true grandeur rises to view. It is never preached in a revival of religion – a proof, not feeble, that the doctrine is not true.”
Given some of the statements made by some leaders within Baptist circles recently, you might be tempted to think this was penned to provoke ire against “Calvinism” and those adhering to the doctrines of grace. However, it was written by Albert Barnes in 1854. Barnes (1798-1870), a graduate of Princeton Seminary and an ordained Presbyterian minister, held a prominent position with the New School Theology advocates. He was tried (but not convicted) for heresy in 1836 over his views regarding original sin, the imputation of Adam’s sin, and the nature of the atonement. The same year Barnes that penned these words, Charles H. Spurgeon spent his first full year in the pastorate of New Park Street. It was from the pulpit at Park Street where the “Prince of Preachers,” who was known for aggressive evangelism, declared:
“Now, beloved, when you hear any one laughing or jeering at a limited atonement, you may tell him this. General atonement is like a great wide bridge with only half an arch; it does not go across the stream: it only professes to go half way; it does not secure the salvation of anybody. Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream.”
A bust of Spurgeon, who declared, “when Christ died, He died for you, if you be a believer in Him,” rests in the one of the hallways of Southwestern Seminary. One wonders if it will soon be removed since current SWBTS president, Paige Patterson, has declared, “Southwestern will not build a school in the future around anybody who could not look anybody in the world in the eyes and say, ‘Christ died for your sins.’” Patterson was echoing the Dean of the School of Theology, David Allen, who remarked at the John 3:16 Conference:
“Anything that makes the preacher hesitant to make the bold proclamation to all people is wrong. . . . . Calvinism is not the Gospel. Should the Southern Baptist Convention move toward five-point Calvinism, such a move would be away from, and not toward, the Gospel. . . . A consistent five-point Calvinist cannot look a congregation in the eyes or even a single sinner in the eye and say: ‘Christ died for you.’ What they have to say to be consistent with their own theology is ‘Christ died for sinners.’ Since Christ did not die for the non-elect, and since the five-point Calvinist does not know who the elect are, it is simply not possible in a preaching or witnessing situation to say to them directly, ‘Christ died for you.’”
It seems “Christ died for you” has replaced “inerrancy” as the new Southern Baptist shibboleth. Steve Gaines, the pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, delivered a message at Criswell College last year in which he warned his listeners not to “get caught up in theology that says that God just wants to save some,” then began citing Scriptures he believes refute particular redemption. Gaines continued:
“It would emaciate my evangelism if I couldn’t walk up to a total stranger and say, ‘Jesus died for you.’ There’s people who can’t do that. They can’t do that. They say, ‘Jesus died for the elect, I hope you’re not one of them. . . . Get rid of your system and go back to the Bible. Quit reading the Bible through your theology and start getting your theology from the Bible.”
Several years ago the SBC faced a lawsuit for plagiarizing D. James Kennedy’s Evangelism Explosion. The late Dr. Kennedy, a five-point Calvinist, declared in his work, Solving Bible Mysteries:
“God makes His sovereign election from among the human race, a race of sinful and corrupt people, all of whom deserve condemnation. But God extends mercy to a vast multitude. He must be just, but He doesn’t have to extend mercy to any. Those whom He selects are saved—a great number out of every tribe and tongue and nation. He sends His Spirit to them to draw them to Himself. But what about the rest? Note carefully: God invites them all to come. With a sincere invitation, He offers them a free salvation, paid for at the cost of His own dear Son. . . . God does not cast anyone out. He does not bar the door. Those who are outside are outside by their own choice, because they keep God away.”
Kennedy didn’t use the phrase, “Christ died for you,” but rather, spoke of what was “paid for at the cost of His own dear Son.” Or, to put it in a manner which Gaines says isn’t biblical, “Christ died for sinners.” To maintain that Kennedy and Spurgeon held unbiblical views which emaciated their evangelism is over simplistic and erroneous.
The statements made by Patterson, Allen, Gaines, and others is creating a sense of panic within SBC. For example, Tim Guthrie, an evangelist whom I respect, remarked recently on SBC Today that he was greatly concerned about any Southern Baptist decrying the statement that “Jesus died for all.” He maintains those within denominational life have always maintained a general atonement. Ironically, he claims Dr. Kennedy (whom he admits to be a Calvinist) did not hold to particular redemption. Guthrie then asks if a select few are going to tell the entire denomination that the Gospel is only for a few and not for all? He answers that he would not be pleased with any employee of any SBC entity who could not tell anyone “Jesus died for you!”
I have posted several times on the topic of “limited atonement.” While detractors denounce it because they believe so strongly that the phrase, “Jesus died for you!” should be used extensively, they fail to examine the intricacies of particular redemption. The delegates at the Synod of Dort declared the atonement is “sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect.” Calvinist stalwart Francis Turretin, who is in full agreement with the Dortians, wrote in The Atonement:
“We do not inquire whether the death of Christ gives occasion to the imparting of some blessings even to the reprobates. Because it is in consequence of the death of Christ that the Gospel is preached to all nations, that the gross idolatry of many heathen nations has been abolished, that the daring impiety of man is greatly restrained by the word of God, that multitudes of the human family obtain many and excellent blessings, though not saving gifts, of the Holy Spirit. It is unquestionable that all these flow from the death of Christ, for there would have been no place for them in the Church, unless Christ had died.”
While the Calvinist position asserts the sufficiency of Christ’s death for all, it does not view faith as that which makes the atonement effective. It affirms, instead, that the atonement secures the faith of the elect and makes actual payment for their sins. Justification does not occur, however, until one trusts Christ alone for salvation. Those who are lost may not blame God for a lack in the atonement or because they are not elect. They are at fault because of their own sin. If they would only believe, they would find the cross sufficient for themselves, yet they refuse. This is exactly why Dr. Kennedy declared, “God extends mercy to a vast multitude. . . . Those whom He selects are saved—a great number out of every tribe and tongue and nation. He sends His Spirit to them to draw them to Himself. But what about the rest? Note carefully: God invites them all to come. With a sincere invitation, He offers them a free salvation, paid for at the cost of His own dear Son. . . . God does not cast anyone out. He does not bar the door. Those who are outside are outside by their own choice, because they keep God away.”
Calvinists have historically affirmed that the death of the Lord Jesus Christ has both universal and particular designs. Calvinist stalwarts such as R. B. Kuiper, Charles Hodge, A. A. Hodge, Louis Berkhof, John Murray, and Herman Bavinck have affirmed strongly that, “It is for all without distinction proof of God’s infinite love and seals the word that He has no pleasure in the death of the sinner but therein that he live, it declares to all that the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for the expiation of all sins, that no one is lost because it is not rich or powerful enough.” The atonement does have reference to the non-elect. It secures for them benefits, namely the sufficiency of the atonement in offering salvation and common grace. The main difference between the Calvinist and the non-Calvinist is that Calvinists believe, in Murray’s words, not “that we are placed in a redeemable position. It means that Christ purchased and procured redemption. . . . Christ did not come to make sins expiable. He came to expiate sins . . . (Hebrews 1:3).”
Murray, along with other Calvinists, makes it plain that this design in no way nullifies the free offer of the Gospel or the responsibility of individuals to repent of their sins and trust Christ alone for salvation. God has commanded His Church to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to all people in all places. This fact was not lost on the delegates to the Synod of Dort, who proclaimed in their canons:
“The death of the Son of God is the only and most perfect sacrifice and satisfaction for sin; is of infinite worth and value, abundantly sufficient to expiate the sins of the whole world. . . . Moreover the promise of the gospel is, that whosoever believeth in Christ crucified shall not perish, but have everlasting life. This promise, together with the command to repent and believe, ought to be declared and published to all nations, and to all persons promiscuously and without distinction, to whom God out of his good pleasure sends the gospel. And whereas many who are called by the gospel do not repent or believe in Christ, but perish in unbelief; this is not owing to any defect or insufficiency in the sacrifice offered by Christ upon the cross, but is wholly to be imputed to themselves.”
The Lord Jesus will return only after this good news has reached the ears of every tribe and tongue and people and nation (Mark 13:10; Revelation 5:9). I suggest that non-Calvinist Southern Baptists consider the words of D. A. Carson, who wrote in The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God:
“I argue, then, that both Arminians and Calvinists should rightly affirm that Christ died for all, in the sense that Christ’s death was sufficient for all and that Scripture portrays God as inviting, commanding, and desiring the salvation of all, out of love . . . Further, all Christians ought also to confess that, in a slightly different sense, Christ Jesus, in the intent of God, died effectively for the elect alone, in line with the way the Bible speaks of God’s special selecting love for the elect.”
I fear, however, that Carson’s words will fall on many deaf ears. Tom Ascol asserts correctly that, “Competing visions for the future of the Southern Baptist Convention are coming to a showdown.” On the one hand are many within the “Baptist Identity” camp, such as Malcolm Yarnell and Ergun Caner, who disallow any criticism of their assertions and maintain Calvinists are disloyal to the Baptist cause. On the other hand are those within the “Great Commission Resurgence” camp, such as Danny Akin and Alvin Reid, who are ready to join hands with non-Baptists for the cause of Christ and the advance of His Kingdom.
I was struck by Dr. Ascol’s statement that, “The GCR vision for the future of the SBC is one where unity is built on the essentials of the gospel while maintaining the distinctives of our Baptist convictions. It recognizes that there are different ways of being Christian Baptists and is not threatened by the diversity of those ways within our confessional commitments. This vision is willing appropriately to utilize the gifts that God has given to gospel-centered churches that are not Baptist and believes that Southern Baptists can do so beneficially and in ways that do not threaten their own convictions.” It sounds eerily familiar to statements made by many Southern Baptists during the days of the Conservative Resurgence / Fundamentalist Takeover. When the Conservative Resurgence began in the 1970s, the stated goal of conservatives was to “have a place at the table” within denominational leadership. Rather than simply gaining a place at the table, conservatives took over the table and removed moderates entirely. Some fundamentalists quipped behind closed doors, “After we get rid of the moderates, the Calvinists are next.” We are now at that point.
Dr. Ascol states optimistically, “I really do believe that, despite our differences, Southern Baptists can work together if we can agree on the centrality and power of the gospel for all of life. I am convinced that a growing number of Southern Baptists believe this, too. Because of this, I anticipate better days ahead.” Due to my experiences over the past two decades in denominational life, I do not share his optimism. In recent days I’ve been told my theological convictions are akin to “Nazism.” Despite my protests as I’ve pointed to doctrinal agreement with The Baptist Faith & Message (Art. V) and such luminaries as W. B. Johnson, R. B. C. Howell, Richard Fuller, P. H. Mell, J. P. Boyce, John Broadus, Richard Furman, J. M. Frost, Jesse Mercer, J. L. Dagg, J. M. Peck, Isaac McCoy, and J. B. Gambrell, I’ve been
told I’m “not a real Southern Baptist.” Just a few months ago, Voddie Baucham spoke of the growing antagonism against Calvinists in SBC life. He confessed, “The SBC establishment is firmly and openly anti-Calvinist. There is no question about that.” Though Dr. Baucham was appointed Chair of the Teller’s Committee in 2001 at the annual convention, offered a three-book publishing deal from LifeWay/Broadman & Holman in 2002, and received invitations to preach at the SBC Pastor’s Conference in 2002, 2004, and 2005, he was marginalized when he “came out of the closet” in 2006 and admitted to being a “fire-breathing, TULIP believing, five-point Calvinist.” Baucham says this “is the unpardonable sin in contemporary Southern Baptist life. . . . The dreaded ‘C’ word has become a death sentence in ‘mainstream’ Southern Baptist life. . . . My crime is being a part of a movement the SBC sees as a threat to evangelism, and our already declining baptismal numbers.”
Over five years ago, Dr. Ascol addressed the question, “Why stay in the SBC?” in The Founders Journal. He makes several fine points in his piece, but I will deal with only two. First, he states one good reason to stay within the SBC is its historic theology, which is “that of the founders of the denomination.” I wholeheartedly affirm the theology under-girding the denomination at its inception, yet acknowledge that the denomination is no longer guided by these doctrines. Just as the U.S. was once guided by Judeo-Christian principles but now finds itself as a multi-cultural, pluralistic society, so the SBC is operating from a different framework than it did at its founding. Not only this, but individuals such as former SBC President Frank Page deride this framework as unbiblical with such comments as, “The totality of history shows the vast majority of Baptists have not been [Calvinists], so why go back to the founders? I think we need to go back to the Bible.” The pastor of FBC Laneville, Texas, Joseph Regel, commented recently in the SBC Texan:
“When it comes to false doctrines, what difference does the history of the SBC make? History, associations and friendships have nothing to do with it. . . . My question is: why do we even want to walk together with proponents of false doctrines?”
Second, Tom states that reformation was impossible for Luther within the Roman Catholic Church because it would have to “necessarily be dismantled and rebuilt without its false dogmas and practices.” He then adds, “It is at just this point where the genius of Baptist polity shines brightly. Our polity makes reformation always a prospect because we do not have a ‘top-down’ structure of government. Every church is independent.” While this is true in theory, it is not so in practice. The SBC has become a bureaucratic machine with a practical top-down structure. Who is at the “top” in sending missionaries? The IMB, not the local church, ultimately determines who is qualified for service. What about chaplain service? It is not ascribing to the local congregation’s confession of faith or church covenant which determine a chaplain’s guidelines for service, but his subscription to NAMB policies. Board polices touching upon doctrinal matters are currently more restrictive than the denomination’s own confession of faith. This leaves one to wonder what stipulations will be added within the next few years. “Calvinism,” well within the parameters of The Baptist Faith & Message, could soon fall under a denominational anathema and Calvinists will be told to just “get the ‘L’ outta here!”

I have reissued a post on this.
I found Alvin Reid’s points of reconciliation a bit more than I could swallow because the result is the same “gag” order mentality that the BI types wish to issue. I think it unfortunate that the looseness of the Constitution and By-laws are being manipulated as they are. What might be coming- that “you’re welcome to speak, but…” -will sound a death knell to the historic cooperative spirit in the SBC. You know me well enough and that I dislike the looseness for the very reason of the politics that it engenders and for the embedded inferred message of unsoundness of doctrine. That said, and after further thinking upon it, the cooperative structure of the SBC, if not abused as it has been, made it the expansive missionary organization it is today. It would be a shame to lose it to exclusionists, but on the other hand, if certain reforms, such as full orbed requirements in education at the local church level concerning the history of the church, her doctrines and the history of the SBC are not ensured, we will continue to have those who will exploit the ignorance which exists.
Good article, even though you near plagiarized my title
I have found out by the grape-vine that one of our SBC churches here actually had the gall to hire a Reformed Pastor. I am comfortable in the PCA that I now attend and do not think I will move. It is good though that we now have a Reformed Baptist pastor here, though sad that no one knows it except the Reformed underground.
Thomas – I honestly didn’t mean to plagiarize your title.
I think it will come down to the establishment saying something along the lines of, “Calvinists are welcome, but not extreme/ultra/hyper-Calvinists who affirm limited atonement.” We’ll see…
As “your” title assesses it, you might be right. It might come down to lose the “l” or lose your home (kinda makes me feel like a teen again when my hair was an issue), but you know, it’s like Voddie’s case, the ‘C’ word makes people ask questions and you that questions will lead the innocent into the “l”abyrinth of doctrinal confusion only to become lost there forever.
James Kennedy mistakenly said: “Those who are outside are outside by their own choice, because they keep God away.”
What he surely meant to say was …outside by the choice of Adam…they don’t intentionally keep God away they naturally keep God away as Satan directs them.
Kennedy harbors, like the SBC, hints of Pelagianism and neglects original sin.
If the sinner intentionally stays away from God there is an island of righteousness that exist within. This island of righteousness allows, theoretically, a sinner to accept or reject Christ. This is something that the Bible plainly states he cannot nor will not do.
Charles – I agree with D. James Kennedy. The fault lies with those who are outside by their own choice. They intentionally keep God away, the spurn His call to repentance, etc. God is not to blame for their rebellion. This is not a hint of Pelagianism, but an historic affirmation of total depravity. The sinner stays away from God, not because their is an island of righteousness within, but because there is absolutely no hint of righteousness.
does this mean for you that Brian Amstrong was wrong that Amyraldianism was a 17th century heresy?
The regenerate can spurn His call to repent, though not ultimately. Haven’t we all done that at some time or another if not maybe daily?
But the unregenerate cannot spurn His call to repent. If they can then election is conditional on not spurning.
Charles – I believe we’ve already gone around and around on this before. Romans 1, for example, shows that the unregenerate “suppress the truth in unrighteousness,” etc. Election is not conditional (not based on our ability, foreseen faith, etc.). No, I don’t believe Amyraldianism is a heresy. Pelagianism, Socinianism, Arianism, Apollinarism – those are all definite heresies. I think too many people are quick to throw out the label of “heresy” when they should use terms such as “error,” etc.
do you think that every descendent of Adam holds the truth? knows about God? and has the ability to glorify God? Paul don’t seem to think so.
Rather thse who do hold the truth and know God choose to treat it unrighteously unthankful and became vain in their immaginations. I believe he has covenant Israel in mind to make the point that if they are this way then the whole world is lost as a result of Adam’s sin. All have sinned.
This makes the point that the covenanted and regenerate only can “supress” the truth. All are lost and the ones who hold the truth (Israel) demonstrate the fact that sinful men cannot hold the truth. You cannot give to anyone outside of Christ anything to do with God ie command to repent. It is not that he can accept it; he will not accept it. Satan has a hold on him. The command to repent goes out to the regenerate exclusively. They are the “all men’.
Only regeneration will intervene on the sinners’ behalf. That means he has to be unconditionally accepted by God. That means a limited and particular atonement
Charles – we’ll have to simply agree to disagree (again) on this point.
so you say all men hold the truth and i say only the covenated and regenerate hold the truth.
Dr Rogers preached this morn on LWF that all men have some light and that light refused increases darkness. Isn’t that heresy? Isn’t there Pelagianism here?
Is the whole world in darkness or partial darkness? Jesus was light and the creation he made was corrupted by Adam and they comprehended him not.
He came into the world and the covenated did not receive him. but all thoes elected and regenerated receive him because they are born of God, iresistibly so.
The Calvinists commonly want to make this an issue of Calvinism vs. Arminianism. But the truth is that the universal atonement of Christ is not an Arminian doctrine, but a Biblical doctrine. Martin Luther said that the universal atonement of Christ was “the foundation of Christian theology”. Francis Pieper, Lutheranism’s greatest theologian, said that the “Reformed doctrine that limits the atonement of Christ is a soul-murdering doctrine”. The false doctrine of limited atonement is something that no Chrstian should take lightly, as it changes the very definition of the Gospel itself. For a more thorough article on the dangers of this error, see the excellent and challenging article “Taking the Mask off Calvinism” at:
http://arlomax.googlepages.com/takingthemaskoffcalvinism%3Athedangerofhum
God’s Blessings,
Pastor Stuart Wood
Pastor Stuart:
Do you see me wanting to make this an issue of division? And, as I stated, the doctrine of particular redemption has both universal and particular designs. You quote Luther, and I’m glad. I’ll do the same. Regarding Romans 9:20-21, Luther wrote:
“God will have all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4), and He gave His Son for us men, and He created man for the sake of eternal life. And likewise: Everything is there for man’s sake and he is there for God’s sake in order that He may enjoy him, etc. But this objection [to God's sovereignty in salvation] and others like it can just as easily be refuted as the first one: because all these sayings must be understood only with respect to the elect, as the apostle says in 2 Timothy 2:10, “All for the elect.” Christ did not die for absolutely all, for he says: “This is my blood which is shed for you” (Luke 22:20) and “for many” (Mark 14:24)- he did not say: for all- “to the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). [Martin Luther, Lectures on Romans, trans. and ed. by Wilhelm Pauck (Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1961), 252.]
It seems Luther understood the atonement has particular and universal aspects as well. I think there is a problem with those who say the atonement has *only* a particular design, just as there is a problem with saying it has *only* a general one.
Rev-
Stuart will not listen to anything you say. Regardless of either Scripture or history, when they disagree with him it is anthema.
Warning: do not engage.
Thomas:
I know Pastor Stuart was simply doing a “drive-by” and “firing” his points with no thought of true discussion. I’ve seen his comments elsewhere. Nonetheless, I’m still trying to discuss the matter thoughtfully.
Dear Dr. Galyon,
That is an interesting quote from Luther, which when I get home tonight from work, I will plan to check out. In all honesty I am a bit skeptical of it, as I know for a fact that Luther clearly held to the universal atonement of Christ, as all Lutherans have since his day. I have personally read over 70 volumes of Luther over the last 15 years, and have seen many confirmations of that and (until this quote of yours) I have never seen anything to the contrary. Also, the orthodox Lutheran Confessions (written by direct pupils of Luther) are very clear on the matter, so as to distinguish themselves from the errors of Calvinism. Also, the definitive Lutheran systematic theology, “Christian Dogmatics” by Dr. Francis Pieper strongly asserts the necessity of the universal atonement of Christ. That 4-volume set is still regarded as the standard theology for orthodox Lutheran seminary training. So this is all to say, I am a bit confused by your quote, and can only tell you that if it proves true, it was not intended by Luther as a definitive statement on the subject as to the extent of Christ’s atonement. Also, being a quote from his Romans commentary, it would be from his earliest writings, at least 5 years before he himself said that he understood the Gospel.
Now, you are correct that my postings here and elsewhere have mostly been “drive-bys”, although not with the thought of no true discussion. I’m actually quite eager for discussion as Thomas (Rosie) will tell you from a multi-month long discussion we had at the Sweet Tea blog. My purpose in posting here and elsewhere is out of genuine Christian love for precious souls because I myself had been snared by the false doctrine of limited atonement and feel the responsiblity to point the error out to others and not let them just blindly be devoured by the devil and his wolves. I know exactly what this issue is about, and would rather cause division by means of the truth of God’s Word in hopes that some would listen, than to let the unsuspecting perish in the way.
To show you how important this issue is, I once aksed John MacArthur personally about the issue of limited atonement. This was in 1993. He told me, “If Christ did not die for the sins of all men, every man born of Adam, you could not preach the Gospel”. I agree with what he said then, even though I know he has sadly departed from this position in his latter years.
Now Dr. Galyon, here is the question, if Christ did not die for all, how can you tell any man (whom you do not know) that Christ died for HIS sins (which is indeed the Gospel)? And more importantly, how do you yourself know (without the objective universal atonement) that Christ died for your own sins? Without this truth, are you not left in the hopeless quagmire of subjectivism as to any assurance of your own salvation?
If you don’t want to answer these questions here, then feel free to drop comments at my posting of “Taking the Mask off Calvinism”.
http://arlomax.googlepages.com/takingthemaskoffcalvinism%3Athedangerofhum
God’s blessings to you,
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
I really am glad you dropped back by 2WC. First, let me say that Luther is one of my very favorite theologians. I hold him in higher esteem than I do Calvin, in many respects because I like his “earthiness.” Second, I do understand what the Lutheran confessions teach, etc., and believe you are affirming them in a consistent manner. Third, I’ve pointed out in previous posts on the topic of the atonement that the work of our Lord Jesus has both universal and particular aspects (please note the links in other comments on this thread). It is the universal aspects which make it possible for the Gospel to be preached sincerely to all and with an authentic invitation to receive the forgiveness of sins through Christ Jesus. I’m very comfortable with the phrase “sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect.”
Pastor staurt
I spoted an error in your theology. You said: “A person is not damned because God did not choose him. He is damned because of his own sins and his own refusal of God’s gracious offer of mercy in Christ.” The correct view is that He is damned because of Adam’s sin and his own sins are a consequence of that. You say,”If I am saved, it is all of God’s doing. If I am lost, it is completely my own fault.” Have you read in the bible about the first and second Adam? The first past on his fault and you were born into iniquity. Don’t give your sins more credit than they deserve. It is Adam’s fault not so much yours! Do I have to mention the second Adam?
Do you believe in original sin?
You said, “However, if the Calvinists mean that it is the nature of God’s elect to persevere in true faith unto the end, then we happily agree. We are “kept by the power of God” (1 Pet. 1:5), and God’s true elect necessarily can and will persevere in true faith unto the end.” I used to be a Wesleyan so i can understand your point here, though I disagree as a Calvinist.
Your honesty here is commendable. The reason you believe this is that you believe in the sinner repenting and not resisting grace. This is conditional election as you have recognized in you speech. Now the reason you do not believe in eternal security (preservation) is that if you can resist or exercise faith to accept Christ then you can also later deny and reject Christ. Forgive the logic here. But it is true.
Now a salvation secured through human faith does not naturally result in regeneration but a pseudo-regeneration which many have achieved. But a regeneration secured throught the work of the Spirit secures an eternal designation, sealed by the spirit. This work of the spirit is sub-conscious and apart from any human effort lest man get the glory. This sub-conscious work is followed (not usually immediately) by a conscious work of the regenerate repenting and submiting to Christian baptism, receiving an answer of a good conscience toward God.
I have never read anything by Luther nor calvin but I am certain that he must have believed in original sin and you should look into that.
Dear Mr. Page and Dr. Galyon,
I very much appreciate the tone with both of you (something new for me on these Calvinist blogs), and I am very much considering the things you have said. I have many things to say, but don’t want to be too long-winded. So I will try to be brief and to the point, and you can always respond for clarity.
First, Mr. Page, I completely affirm the correct and necessary doctrine of original sin. When I say that a person is condemned for his own sins, I would also include his participation in Adam’s sin and his inherited sinful nature which is hostile to God. I also believe that all actual sins are a fruit of that inherited sin nature. The sinner sins because he is a sinner by nature.
Secondly, I do believe that God’s elect will be kept by the power of God unto the end, persevering in true faith. I also believe that there are those who have rightly received the gift of salvation and do indeed fall away from the faith. God is earnest about His warnings of loss and we have Biblical examples of such apostates. These however, were never those whom God had truly chosen before the foundation of the world as all of those must necessarily be found in Christ on that great day. I don’t try to reconcile these high things to my natural reason, but receive them both in child-like faith as plainly stated in the Scriptures. I leave the resolution with God.
Now, Dr. Galyon, I did find that quote that you mentioned earlier in my own set of Luther’s Works, Vol. 25, pp. 365, 376, and it pretty much was translated the same as your version verbatum. The only significant difference was that in your version it said, “Christ did not die for absolutely all”, whereas in mine it says, “For in an absolute sense Christ did not die for all”. While this statement is still a bit puzzling to me, I will venture a guess as to what Luther meant.
From you readings of Luther, I think you would have to agree that this is an anomaly. There are many, many passages from Luther that affirm the full universal atonement of Christ. I have left you with several very clear statements in my paper on Calvinism with the link I left. So, what does Luther mean here?
I would say this – that even the doctrine of the universality of the atonement of Christ is ultimately (in an absolute sense) for the sake of God’s elect. The reason for this is that before they are saved the elect do not know that they are the elect. They only know that they are sinners. They are on the outside of the Holy City, so to speak. They are at this point in Adam, not in Christ. And yet they must come to know with assurety that the work of Christ was done for them. And they must derive this knowledge from the objective verifiable Word of God that cannot and will not deceive, for they find nothing trustworthy within themselves. Thus the Gospel addresses them as they are, as sinners belonging to the whole lump of the world, part of the universal mass of sinners all stemming from Adam. Thus, on the outside of the Gospel door leading into the city is written “God so loved the world, etc.”, but once they have entered the city another sign appears on the inside of the Gospel door and that sign reads “do not think that you chose Me, but I have chosen you, etc.” The doctrine of election comes now as a great comfort to the Christian to know that what God has begun, He will most certainly complete. This is the gist of what I think (without getting into details).
I also don’t mind the expression “sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect”, if it’s understood in the correct way. But I find that many limited atoners hide behind this statement and use it to deny the universality of the atonement and are indeed corrupters of the Gospel itself. I have a very easy test to see if someone has the true Gospel, and it is this – can you tell me that Jesus Christ died for MY sins? If you cannot say that to me without reservations, then I know for certainty that you have a false Gospel. The Gospel is nothing more than the joyous anouncement to the lost sinner that Christ died for his sins necessarily based upon the fact that He died for all. Furthermore the Apostle Paul pronounces a solemn Anathema upon anyone (including himself) who would dare to even slightly change the contents of this saving Gospel. I must be able to say to the lost sinner, “Christ died for OUR sins”, not “Christ died for sins – whether his or not I cannot say”.
Hope this helps. I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I feel that this needs to be seriously addressed. All other blog talk without being correct on the issue of the Gospel, is building without the foundation.
God’s grace to you both,
Pastor Wood
Dear Dr. Galyon,
Is there a problem with my post last night? It has been over 12 hours and still is showing that it is “awaiting moderation”. I would appreciate that post being shown as it took time to prepare it and was an honest response to not only you, but also to Mr. Page.
Thanks so much,
Pastor Wood
Some of us have to work for a living, Pastor Wood.
No problem. I think I am just getting a little paranoid. I have had this happen to me a few times where the blog owner doesn’t like what I have said and just plain doesn’t post it. I think Thomas (Rosie) can vouch for this.
Thanks though. Look forward to your thoughts.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
I’m pleased you find the tone of this blog to be welcoming, though I must confess it’s disheartening to hear that this is something “new” on Calvinist blogs. The doctrines related to God’s grace must be lived out in the lives of His people. I trust that those who are currently in the “cage stage” (i.e., needing to be locked up until the doctrine in their heads makes it to their hearts) will soon be out of it.
First, I believe you and I agree fully on the doctrine of original sin (though Charles’ views differ a bit as he is a “high” Calvinist – Is that fair to say, Charles?).
Second, I’m a bit surprised to hear you say that the elect “will be kept by the power of God unto the end, persevering in true faith.” Of course, you mentioned you “also believe that there are those who have rightly received the gift of salvation and do indeed fall away from the faith.” I still haven’t wrapped my head around the Lutheran doctrine of perseverance (for lack of a better term). You speak of apostates who “were never those whom God had truly chosen before the foundation of the world as all of those must necessarily be found in Christ on that great day.” Guess I shouldn’t try to reconcile these things to my reason, either.
Nonetheless, I think our position on this is very, very familiar.
In regard to the Luther quote and your explanation, I think (again) we are fairly close to each other in our views. I would again point you to my posts elsewhere, particular in relation to the quotes from Reformed theologians. I know there are some within Calvinistic circles which deny any form of universality in the atonement. I believe this is a denial of historic Reformed theology.
I’m not sure I agree with your test, in that I think it is perfectly acceptable to say “Christ died for sinners.” Guess that makes me a heretic in your view, yet I believe very strongly that all individuals must be told that God demands their repentance and faith in Christ alone for salvation, and that all those who flee to Christ Jesus will find complete forgiveness for sins.
I’m not taking you as being argumentative, and appreciate that you are discussing the matter here. I have several Lutheran friends, and hope that you may become one of them. I also hope that we may count each other as brothers in Christ, for I cherish fellowship across denominational lines.
P.S. (Note this quote from the post – “It is for all without distinction proof of God’s infinite love and seals the word that He has no pleasure in the death of the sinner but therein that he live, it declares to all that the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient for the expiation of all sins, that no one is lost because it is not rich or powerful enough.”)
[...] Limited Atonement for Whom? The Controversy in the Southern Baptist Convention [...]
Dr. Galyon,
Thank you for your response. I also appreciate the open tone and hope that we will both be able to maintain this. There are two issues that I would like to address in this email, the second of which is the most important.
First, as to the issue of eternal security vs. threatened and real loss, orthodox Lutherans hold to both of these, as the Scriptures clearly teach both of these. We do so in this way. We see all of our security tied up with the apprehension of the Gospel, how that “Christ died for our sins”. He who holds to the Gospel holds to Christ, and he who holds to Christ holds to eternal security and every other spiritual blessing. However, he who lets go of the Gospel, lets go of Christ, and thus lets go of salvation and all blessings. We also believe that no man can by his own strength begin to believe nor continue to believe, but that God must keep him from beginning to end. As to why some let go of the Gospel and Christ, we leave as a mystery, other than to say that it is their own doing and the fault is not in God.
Perhaps a good way to think about this is the Passover house in Egypt, which we see as a picture of the Gospel and salvation in Christ. So long as you stay in the house, you are eternally safe from the Angel of Death. But God is sincere and earnest in His threats not to leave the house. And if you do leave the house, you will surely suffer the same judgment as all the rest of the Egyptians that are outside of the house. So both things, security and threats, work for our good. One to comfort us while in the house, and the other to keep us from leaving the house. Our security is in and with Christ, and we do not affirm any pretense of security without Him.
Secondly, and this is really my most important concern. You say that you are not sure with my test – can you say to me that Christ died for MY sins? So I will put it in a different way – on what basis do you believe that Christ died for YOUR own sins? Knowing that faith cometh only from the Word of God (Rom. 10:17), from whence do you derive your knowledge that the atoning work of Christ was done for you personally?
I look forward to your response.
Yours in Christ,
Pastor Wood
Testing… 1, 2, 3, I posted something a few hours ago and see no sign of it having been received.
Glad I tested. Here’s what I posted earlier…
Dr. Galyon,
Thank you for your response. I also appreciate the open tone and hope that we will both be able to maintain this. There are two issues that I would like to address in this email, the second of which is the most important.
First, as to the issue of eternal security vs. threatened and real loss, orthodox Lutherans hold to both of these, as the Scriptures clearly teach both of these. We do so in this way. We see all of our security tied up with the apprehension of the Gospel, how that “Christ died for our sins”. He who holds to the Gospel holds to Christ, and he who holds to Christ holds to eternal security and every other spiritual blessing. However, he who lets go of the Gospel, lets go of Christ, and thus lets go of salvation and all blessings. We also believe that no man can by his own strength begin to believe nor continue to believe, but that God must keep him from beginning to end. As to why some let go of the Gospel and Christ, we leave as a mystery, other than to say that it is their own doing and the fault is not in God.
Perhaps a good way to think about this is the Passover house in Egypt, which we see as a picture of the Gospel and salvation in Christ. So long as you stay in the house, you are eternally safe from the Angel of Death. But God is sincere and earnest in His threats not to leave the house. And if you do leave the house, you will surely suffer the same judgment as all the rest of the Egyptians that are outside of the house. So both things, security and threats, work for our good. One to comfort us while in the house, and the other to keep us from leaving the house. Our security is in and with Christ, and we do not affirm any pretense of security without Him.
Secondly, and this is really my most important concern. You say that you are not sure with my test – can you say to me that Christ died for MY sins? So I will put it in a different way – on what basis do you believe that Christ died for YOUR own sins? Knowing that faith cometh only from the Word of God (Rom. 10:17), from whence do you derive your knowledge that the atoning work of Christ was done for you personally?
I look forward to your response.
Yours in Christ,
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
Don’t worry, no need to test, you’ll be heard. Like I said, some of us work for a living (though if I could make good money for blogging, I’d do it).
The basis on which I believe Christ died for my sins is simply the promise of the Gospel (doesn’t that sound Lutheran?!). God promised me (and all) that if I trusted in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins that He would grant pardon on account of the Lord Jesus. Where do I derive that knowledge? Objectively, and most importantly, from the promise of God, which comes from His Word.
I believe God also calls us to “make our calling and election sure” as the Apostle Peter declared. Subjectively, we can see evidence of our calling and election as pointed out in 1 Peter 1 and in 1 John (e.g., walking in the light, loving the brethren, etc.). What happens when we wonder to ourselves, “Am I walking in the light like I should? Do I love God enough? Do I love the brethren enough?” Etc., etc., etc.? We must ultimately come back to the objectivity of the Gospel.
I’ve had a similar discussion with another Lutheran friend (a pastor). He thinks I’m really a Lutheran.
Dr. Galyon,
Through this friendly dialogue, we have really made some progress. Here is a very significant difference resulting from our views of the atonement.
I say, I know Christ died for MY sins because God’s Word says that He died for all, and I am one of the all. The truth that He died for my sins resides outside of myself. The truth remains the truth whether I believe it or not. In fact, I am forced to believe it, because if I don’t I make God a liar.
You say, you know Christ died for YOUR sins because He promised you that IF YOU TRUST Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins, He would grant pardon on account of the Lord Jesus. So your faith rests upon your own perceived trust in Christ. If you trust Him, then the atonement applies to you. If you don’t trust Him, then the atonement does not apply to you. Am I correct?
For me the crucial matter lies outside myself. For you it resides within yourself. For me I need the objective promise of the Gospel in the Word of God and if that Word fails I am ruined. For you you are looking to trust Jesus as a Person, with the idea that if you do, He will come through for you with His atoning work. Quite different.
I’ll be interested in your thoughts.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
No, my faith does not rest upon my own perceived trust in Christ. My faith rests upon God has done for me through Christ. Period. Again, “sufficient for all, efficient only for the elect.” The atonement is sufficient for all, but applied/efficient only for those who believe (the elect). For both of us, the crucial matter lies outside ourselves. We both need the objective promise of the Gospel in the Word of God. If that Word fails, we are both ruined. I’m not sure what you mean by, “For you you are looking to trust Jesus as a Person with the idea that if you do, He will come through for you with His atoning work.” Of course I’m trusting the Person of Jesus. Who else would I trust? Of course I’m trusting God’s promise that if I come to Him in faith I will be freely justified on account of Christ alone.
What has God done for you through Christ?
Forgiven my sins, justified me freely, blessed me with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies, etc., etc., etc.
Bear with me. How do you know that He has forgiven your sins?
Because He promised (in His Word / in the Gospel) to do so on account of Christ Jesus.
That is outside of me (us). It is objective.
How about – because Christ died for my sins? Consider this carefully. The difference may seem subtle to you at the moment, but this one and only answer changes everything.
That is essentially what I’m saying, Stuart. Notice I stated previously, “Because He promised (…in the Gospel)…on account of Christ Jesus.” Like I said before, it is outside of me (us). It is objective.
Stuart:
How do you know that Christ died for you?
James and Stuart
from my blog:
Spiritually men are as infants, they hear sounds but do not have understanding. Spiritually men are as the seriously mentally challenged, they hear sounds but are not understanding without any capability to communicate. They instinstinctively feel pain and pleasure but there is no understanding about life. Their basic infantile needs are met but there is no progress beyond that. Physically they are alive.
The sinner is spiritually dead, lifeless, without understanding. If you clearly believe in original sin then you have to believe that man does not have a free choice in salvation. “Well no wonder we don’t believe in original sin, we know man has free choice!” “How could we love God if we didn’t have free choice?”
The real question that is never asked is, “how could God really love us if we had free choice?”
Remember, when God created He pronounced “it is good” on all but man. The decree to sin was not just permitted but necessary for God’s perfect demonstration of love. A love that would entail a Son being offered as a sacrifice for sinful man. God’s pleasure was fulfilled in Christ. Christ’s death brought Him pleasure! What a wonderful thought! Psalms 53
So Dr Rogers’ error in saying that there is a little light in man is wrong. The light shines all around but not within. His belief in two ways of salvation is erroneous. There is one way to salvation not one for infants and the mentally challenged and another for adults who reach an age of accountability. There is not one for those who cannot make a choice and another for those who can.
Salvation is by election. All who are elected are saved. The application of election is Holy Spirit regeneration according to the pleasure of the Father. There is no human will involved, no matter how hard you try it will not overcome original sin. The only way to free will is the denial of original sin, one or the other.
agree or disagree?
Charles:
Disagree.
Charles:
Here are my disagreements –
1) Spiritually, men are not infants, but “dead in trespasses and sins” apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.
2) There is a difference between free agency and absolute autonomy. All have a choice in salvation, but the problem with the unregenerate is that his choice is against God.
3) Infants and the mentally challenged are saved, not because they are innocent of sin, but because God is gracious and merciful and loving.
4) Salvation is not by election, but through the work of God in Christ (salvation is applied to the elect).
5) The will is involved in justification.
does this mean you don’t believe in OS?
Charles:
You know I believe in original sin, it’s just that I disagree with several things you posted in the comment.
Dear Dr. Galyon,
Thank you for bearing with these seemingly simplistic questions. I definitely have had a purpose in asking them, and you have shown a truly Christian attitude in responding to them.
In answer to your question – how do I know that Christ died for me? My answer is that He said so in His Word (John 3:16).
This is not only the correct answer, it is the only saving answer since it is the Word of the Gospel itself, “the power of God unto salvation”. When I can say that Jesus died for my sins, I am at the very foundation of faith, the bedrock, if you will. There is nothing below it but “God said it”. Any other answer we give will always require a more fundamental answer upon which it is based. But when we come to “Jesus died for my sins” we are at the bottom rung of the ladder.
This is the way God wanted it, and that is why He prescribed this one and only unalterable Gospel (Gal. 1:8, 9). Satan knows this well, and on one’s deathbed he will pull the rug out on all other answers, and will expose the illusion to one’s own confusion and damnation. It will then be shown that our faith was never truly resting upon the Gospel and God’s Word but was necessarily resting upon something within ourselves. We will be shown to have been idolaters all along, trusting in ourselves. This is why we must have the true universal Gospel only, founded upon the true universal atonement of Christ. It is the only answer that sinful man can give to God by which he will not be condemned. This Gospel, how that “Christ died for OUR sins” must not change in any way. It must be kept absolutely pure and in tack, or we are doomed.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
So, while we may quibble over aspects of the atonement, don’t we agree essentially that our faith ultimately rests upon God and what He has promised (the Gospel) in His unchanging Word?
what are the things you disagreed with?
it seems to me that the basis of any free offer is based on sins commited by a responsible adult are commanded to be repented of. . . forgiveness of known individual sins. As soon as we become accountable then we are commanded to repent.
The free offer does not apply to infants or severely retaded. They are saved a different way.
In all this thre is no hint that Adam’s sin is even involved.
Just my thoughts!
Dr. Galyon,
Our differences concerning the atonement are not insignificant because of the direct bearing that they have the definition of the Gospel itself. There is only one correct definition of the Gospel, and Paul has pronounced an anathema on all other so-called Gospels.
The universal atonement of Christ asserts that the true Gospel is how “Christ died for OUR sins” (1 Cor. 15:1-4), something that we may objectively announce to other people indiscriminantly. This Gospel allows me, Stuart Wood, to tell you, James Galyon, that Jesus died for YOUR sins.
A limited atonement (that Christ died for the elect only) cannot assert this word “OUR” and thus cannot objectively announce the forgiveness of sins to others. As we have seen, it does not allow you, James Galyon, to tell me, Stuart Wood, that Christ died for MY sins.
So we have two different Gospels. They cannot both be true. I am asserting to you that the universal Gospel is the true Gospel. I am also asserting that the so-called Gospel that results from limited atonement is necessarily a false Gospel.
This is not only what I believe, but what all true orthodox Lutherans believe.
I hope you know that I’m not trying to offend you, but rather to share with you this vital truth for the eternal benefit of your soul.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
So, will unbelievers tell God on Judgment Day, “You can’t send me to Hell, Christ died for MY sins!” I imagine your reply will be to the effect, “No. The problem isn’t with the atonement, the problem is that they did not receive justification.” If that is the case, then, isn’t the subjectivity you are arguing for in full effect? The difference would be then, not the grace of God, but the will of man, wouldn’t it? And, if ALL their sins have been completely wiped away, what about the sin of unbelief?
Dr. Galyon,
First, the Gospel must remain the Gospel no matter what kind of problems it poses to our minds or to our theology. If the one and only true Gospel is that “Christ died for our sins”, that is the only truth by which we may be saved, even if we didn’t know the answer to these questions that you pose. The true Gospel alone is “the power of God unto salvation”.
Now as to your questions. First, we make a distinction between the universal atonement of Christ and the application of that atonement which necessarily must occur through faith. “We are saved by grace through faith”. So just because everybody’s sins have been atoned for and forgiven, not all receive this forgiveness as it must come to them through the conduit of faith alone.
However, we do not see faith as a product of one’s will. Rather faith (confidence, trust) comes TO us through the apprehension of the true Gospel, how that Christ loves us even at our worst and suffered and died for our sins. This Gospel Word creates the faith in us, which in turn enables us to receive and glory in that which has been done for us. God persuades us of His love for us in the Word of the Gospel.
As for the issue of the sin of unbelief, we believe this. It is true that Christ died for all sins, including the sin of unbelief. This sin too is embraced in the atonement, for Christ is “the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin (singular) of the world”. He has taken away the whole lump. No sin is omitted. But the sin of unbelief (in the atonement) is unforgiveable due to the special nature of this sin. It alone stops up the one and only conduit of faith whereby all forgiveness must come. Thus, while the person is truly forgiven, he is unable to receive that forgiveness due to his unbelief, and thus dies without it.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
So, on Judgment Day, forgiven people will be judged for sin which has been atoned?
Upon what basis are they judged?
For what are they judged?
If forgiven people are judged, then how do you know you won’t also be judged/condemned?
Dr. Galyon,
I will do my best to answer your questions, but remember the issue here is the definition of the Gospel. If the Gospel is as I have described it, then we may only be saved by means of it and in no other way. In this sense these questions and my answers don’t matter at all, as they are all quite secondary.
But I will answer nonetheless. Yes, on Judgement Day forgiven people will be judged for their sins because they despised and rejected the gracious forgiveness that was wrought for them. Despite the fact that Christ stretched out His hands to them all the day every day, they failed to trust His Gospel Word which is the only means by which they could be saved. They refused the gracious invitation to the marriage supper and thus shall in no wise taste of it. They said in their hearts, “we will not have this man to rule over us”, and thus will necessarily and justly go to their own place, the place of their own choosing. I think this ansewers your first three questions.
As to your last question, I KNOW that I will not be among these condemned because God’s Word cannot fail. He has said that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and I KNOW that He will be true to His Word. Furthermore, He has applied the atoning blood of Christ to me in the waters of baptism, thus giving me a sure and certain knowledge that I am in full possession of “the remission of sins”.
Pastor Wood
“He has said that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and I KNOW that He will be true to His Word.”
Yet you said Jesus Christ died for other forgiven sinners who will be lost.
What makes the difference with you?
If you believe a baptized believer can become an apostate, then how can baptism bring “a sure and certain knowledge” of “the remission of sins”?
Again, what makes the difference with you?
Pastor Wood
Would you say that the sin of Heb 10:26 is a sin of believers, regenerate, sanctified and that they will go to heaven and there face an awful calamity in judgement? Is this sinners or saints in the hands of an angry God?
Charles
1) Spiritually, men are not infants, but “dead in trespasses and sins” apart from the work of the Holy Spirit.
I probably meant to say sinners are like infants, yet true they are dead, especially leagally and forencicly sp. and with a death appointment. infants-without understanding
2) There is a difference between free agency and absolute autonomy. All have a choice in salvation, but the problem with the unregenerate is that his choice is against God.
now I believe you said they were dead and not even like infants. What does agency and autonomy have to do with them?
3) Infants and the mentally challenged are saved, not because they are innocent of sin, but because God is gracious and merciful and loving.
Then why aren’t responsible adults not saved in the same way? they have to repent in order to be saved! Infants don’t!
4) Salvation is not by election, but through the work of God in Christ (salvation is applied to the elect). AGREED
5) The will is involved in justification.
Do you believe that Justification is confered at the sinners decision?
I believe that justification was confered at Calvary or before. The faith that believes we are justified was given by grace at regeneration. No the will is not involved.
Charles:
2) Free agency means that individuals make choices which are not coerced, where there wills are not violated, and they are fully responsible for all the decisions they make. Absolute autonomy means God can’t interfere at all with an individual’s free will (e.g., if that were the case, He wouldn’t be able to harden Pharaoh’s heart, etc.).
3) Infants aren’t innocent. They are corrupted by original sin. Salvation comes to them, not because they are free from sin, but because God is gracious.
5) Justification is conferred the moment one believes.
Dr. Galyon,
There are only two things I need in order to know I am saved. I need the universal atonement of Christ and I need baptism. From the universal atonement I know with certainty that Christ died for me because He died for all. For me to say that Christ did not die for my sins would be to make God a liar. This is really all that matters.
However, God has also given us a sure and certain application of that atoning blood in the waters of baptism. Luther says that the waters of baptism are really crimson, joined as they are with the blood of Christ. So not only do I know with certainty that Christ died for my sins, but I also know with certainty that I am rightly and lawfully connected to that work via baptism, which also cannot lie or deceive. I do not look at my own personal faith, as to take any comfort from that would be idolatry. Rather I look away from myself to the external objective verifiable Word of God which tells me that Christ died for me and that God has applied that work to me in baptism. This cannot fail because God’s Word cannot fail. Others do not value this wisdom, nor take refuge or comfort in it, and therefore die without it.
You have now asked me many questions, which I have now answered for you. I ask you now, is there anything that I have said that is not true to the Word of God? If so, what is that? Is there any “free will” in any of this? Is there any denial of election or free grace? Is there any denial of the sovereignty of God? Are not all the right things affirmed and all the wrong things rejected? This is the beauty of Luther, the greatest light of the Christian church(outside of Scripture), who restored for us the orthodox Christian faith in all of its truth and purity.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
You haven’t really answered my last questions. At this point you are saying you need two things in order to know you are saved: the atonement and baptism. Yet, you said Jesus Christ died (made atonement) for forgiven sinners who will be lost. What makes the difference with you? Baptism? But you stated a baptized believer can become an apostate. Again, what makes the difference with you?
“Again, what makes the difference with you?”
Stuart?
Dr. Galyon,
I have said it to you as clearly as I can. Perhaps to use the Passover house analogy again, God has provided a place of safety for all men in the one and only true Gospel, and He invites all men to take refuge in it. By God’s grace, I recognize the truth of this refuge, and have taken up residence in it, having gone through the sure and certain identifiable blood stained door of baptism. According to His Word, I am now in the house, and God has promised that I am safe from the wrath to come. As I said before, this cannot fail, as God’s Word cannot fail. Others, of their own wicked will, reject this refuge, and thus die without it. This is the difference between me and them. What is it that you do not understand about that?
Again, I ask you, is there anything at all that I have said that is not true to the Word of God? Yes, or no?
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
Yes, you’ve stated your position as clearly as you can, but you haven’t answered my last questions. In regard to your Passover house analogy, how has my position failed to provide a place of safety for all in the Gospel? All are invited to take refuge. God has promised those within the house are safe from the wrath to come. This promise cannot fail. Those who, of their own wicked will, reject this refuge, will die without it.
With yours there is no objective Word of promise that Christ died for MY sins. THIS IS THE GOSPEL. There is no Passover house without this.
Stuart:
You keep claiming the objective promise, yet you still haven’t answered my last questions.
Why don’t you state your questions again because I believe I have answered every one of them? I may not have given you the answers you are looking for, but I have given you my own clear honest answers. This cat and mouse game smells of Pharisaic sophistry to me. If you have a question that I have not answered, declare it plainly. I do not believe you can do that.
Pastor Wood
Stuart:
Here are the questions –
1) You stated on Judgment Day, forgiven people will be judged for sin which has been atoned. Upon what basis are they judged? For what are they judged?
2) If forgiven people are judged, then how do you know you won’t also be judged/condemned? You replied several times you need two things: atonement and baptism. Yet, you said Jesus Christ died (made atonement) for forgiven sinners who will be lost; and that a baptized believer can become an apostate. So, what makes the difference with you?
Have you said anything not true to the Word of God? Not if you’re a Lutheran.
I might add that you have not answered my question which I am now asking for a third time – is there anything at all that I have said that is not true to the Word of God? Yes, or no?
That should be easy for you.
2. Absolute autonomy belongs only to God. It is not comunicated to man. Absolute autonomy is uncreated thought and it creates thought. It is independent thought.
God knows the thought He has for us. he gives us our thoughts. He creates thought.
3. I took it for granted that you knew that infants are not innocent and that is a given. They inherit Adam’s sin.
4. Catholics say Justification is confered at baptism and thus the docrine of baptisimal regeneration. If you believe that justification is confered when one believes then you believe in decisional regeneration.
Charles:
- Yes, absolute autonomy belongs only to God.
- Yes, all are born with original sin.
- Roman Catholics do not believe justification is conferred at baptism. They believe justification follows sanctification. The problem with your statement, in accusing me of decisional regeneration, is confusing justification with regeneration.
Pastor Wood
Would you say that the sin of Heb 10:26 is a sin of believers, regenerate, sanctified and that they will go to heaven and there face an awful calamity in judgement? Is this sinners or saints in the hands of an angry God?
Charles
Dr. Galyon,
I have clearly answerd both of these questions.
Question #1: You stated on Judgment Day, forgiven people will be judged for sin which has been atoned. Upon what basis are they judged? For what are they judged?
Answer #1: On Judgement Day forgiven people will be judged for their sins because they despised and rejected the gracious forgiveness that was wrought for them. Despite the fact that Christ stretched out His hands to them all the day every day, they failed to trust His Gospel Word which is the only means by which they could be saved. They refused the gracious invitation to the marriage supper and thus shall in no wise taste of it. They said in their hearts, “we will not have this man to rule over us”, and thus will necessarily and justly go to their own place, the place of their own choosing.
Questions #2: If forgiven people are judged, then how do you know you won’t also be judged/condemned? You replied several times you need two things: atonement and baptism. Yet, you said Jesus Christ died (made atonement) for forgiven sinners who will be lost; and that a baptized believer can become an apostate. So, what makes the difference with you?
Answer #2A: I KNOW that I will not be among these condemned because God’s Word cannot fail. He has said that Jesus Christ died for my sins, and I KNOW that He will be true to His Word. Furthermore, He has applied the atoning blood of Christ to me in the waters of baptism, thus giving me a sure and certain knowledge that I am in full possession of “the remission of sins”.
Answer 2B: First, as to the issue of eternal security vs. threatened and real loss, orthodox Lutherans hold to both of these, as the Scriptures clearly teach both of these. We do so in this way. We see all of our security tied up with the apprehension of the Gospel, how that “Christ died for our sins”. He who holds to the Gospel holds to Christ, and he who holds to Christ holds to eternal security and every other spiritual blessing. However, he who lets go of the Gospel, lets go of Christ, and thus lets go of salvation and all blessings. We also believe that no man can by his own strength begin to believe nor continue to believe, but that God must keep him from beginning to end. As to why some let go of the Gospel and Christ, we leave as a mystery, other than to say that it is their own doing and the fault is not in God.
Perhaps a good way to think about this is the Passover house in Egypt, which we see as a picture of the Gospel and salvation in Christ. So long as you stay in the house, you are eternally safe from the Angel of Death. But God is sincere and earnest in His threats not to leave the house. And if you do leave the house, you will surely suffer the same judgment as all the rest of the Egyptians that are outside of the house. So both things, security and threats, work for our good. One to comfort us while in the house, and the other to keep us from leaving the house. Our security is in and with Christ, and we do not affirm any pretense of security without Him.
My Question to you: Is there anything at all that I have said that is not true to the Word of God? Yes, or no?
I am not ineterested in whether a Lutheran would regard what I have said as true to the Word of God. I am asking YOU if is there anything at all that I have said that is not true to the Word of God? Yes, or no? It’s very telling to me that you do not want to answer this question.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
First, I answered as I did regarding your question about answering in an unbiblical way because you don’t honestly seem open to anything non-Lutheran. I think you are more concerned with proving your position than discussing the issue.
Second, yes, I believe you have stated something which is unbiblical. Namely, in regard to judgment, unbelievers are judged for more than simply rejecting Christ. They are judged on account of their sins (e.g., Colossians 3:6; Revelation 20:12-13). The matter of judgment is very much tied to how one views the design of the atonement.
Third, do you notice your circular reasoning?
Dr. Galyon,
First, it is trut that I am not open to anything non-Lutheran as I know that it is the orthodox Christian faith in all of its truth and purity, just as I am not open to Islam as I know that Christianity is the true religion. However, you should know that I am a graduate of a non-Lutheran Seminary, M.Div. in Bible Exposition from Talbot Theological Seminary, and taught a F.L.O.C.K. at Grace Community Church for three years under the discipleship of Fred Barshaw, then MacArthur’s right-hand man. I have sought to “prove all things, and hold fast to that which is good” and have come to KNOW that Luther’s teachings are the true orthodox faith, plain and simple.
As for your charge that I have stated something unbiblical, I can only say that this is a slanderous assumption on your part, for at no time did I ever say that unbelievers are not “judged on account of their sins”. In fact, they are judged for every sinful intention, thought, and deed – original sin, sins of commission and sins of omission. Their is not a single sin which God’s judgment will in any way overlook for them on that dreadful day. Though the Dear Lord has truly paid for their sins on the Cross of Calvary, and though they were truly forgiven these sins, since they reject and despise this payment and forgiveness, they must justly suffer the penalty of their sins themselves without the forgiveness.
Again, I ask YOU, is there anything that I have said that is not true to the Word of God? Yes, or no?
And if there is “circular reasoning” here, then bear witneess of it. Could it rather be that your own depraved human reason cannot follow the thoughts of the Word of God and faith?
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
First, I have assessed you correctly, then.
Second, “slanderous assumption” is a bit of an overstatement, isn’t it? I have not tried to slander you. Thank you for explaining your position more fully.
Third, your interpretation is different, but I understand your position as being one based upon Scripture. I believe both fit within orthodox Christianity (while you don’t).
Fourth, it’s possible my own depraved reason cannot follow the thoughts of the Word of God and faith. I am honestly trying to be faithful to Scripture. Then again, perhaps the problem is your own depraved human opinion.
Dr. Galyon,
The word “slanderous” was an overstatement. I apologize.
It is not an issue of “interpetation” when it comes to the unversal atonement of Christ. It is an issue of simple child-like faith affriming the Word of God for what it plainly says. How could God have said it any more plainly than “Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin (sing., whole lump) of the world”? To reject that and over 20 more clear New Testament statements asserting the universal atonement is not to have a different “interpretation”, but it is to put one’s theology ahead of the Word of God, it is to exalt deparaved human reeason over simple child-like faith. Period.
While I too have a depraved human reason, every bit as depraved as yours, I do not let it rule over me when it comes to the Word of God, most importantly when it comes to the one and only saving Gospel of Christ. There I have learned “to take my reason captive to the obedience of Christ”. You and all others who are reading this would do well to do the same. Without this one true universal Gospel, how that “Christ died for OUR sins”, you cannot be saved. I genuinely fear for you all.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
Again, Scripture speaks of the atonement with both universal and particular aspects. In seeking faithfulness to Scripture, I seek to affirm both aspects. To take you literally, then, no one who is a “Calvinist” is saved. Correct? So, all the missionary heroes within the Reformed camp (e.g., Carey, Judson, Paton), and the great evangelists within the Reformed camp (e.g., Whitefield, Edwards, Spurgeon) are all outside the Gospel because they didn’t have, affirm, or proclaim the Gospel. All the professions of faith which resulted from their labors were false professions since the Gospel wasn’t being proclaimed. So the likes of St. Augustine, George Whitefield, Jonathan Edwards, and Charles Spurgeon are all in Hell? Thanks for warning us.
Dr. Galyon,
Anyone who does not believe in the true Gospel as revealed in the Word of God is damned (Mark. 16:15,16). Anyone who perverts the true Gospel as revealed in the Word of God is “anathema” (Gal. 1:6-9). There is only one Gospel, which is the universal Gospel, how that “Christ died for our sins” (1 Cor. 15:1-4). As shocking as that may sound to you, and as much confidence you may have in the faith of other men, THAT IS THE TRUTH.
As I said in my article, “Taking the Mask off Calvinism”, some Calvinists are saved through what the Lutheran theologians call a “bleessed inconsistency”. That is, there are some who with their lips extol a limited atonement (without realizing its terrible implications), and in their heart ultimately believe in the correct universal atonement of Christ. These people are saved, despite their many other errors.
One such example of this “blessed inconsistency” is with John Calvin himself. On his deathbed he himself resorted to the true universal atonement of Christ as his ground of salvation. In his Last Will and Testament, he writes, “With my whole soul I embrace the mercy which He has exercised towards me through Jesus Christ, atoning for my sins with the merits of His death and passion, that in this way He might satisfy for all my crimes and faults, and blot them from His remembrance. I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to wash and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer has shed for the sins of the human race, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat.” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. 8, p. 829).
Here again is a link to my article, which you and all of your readers would do well to pay heed.
http://arlomax.googlepages.com/takingthemaskoffcalvinism%3Athedangerofhum
Pastor Wood
james, u said: Justification is conferred the moment one believes
CCC 1992, 1265, 1266 states Justification is confered at baptism
so what happens when you say one believes? Isn’t it regeneration and sanctifing grace?
How is that not decisional regeneration?
all conditional on believing?
Charles:
Yes, justification is conferred the moment one believes (places faith in Christ). Sanctification follows justification. Regeneration is not equivalent to justification, nor is faith the cause of regeneration. Decisional regeneration makes the new birth dependent upon the will of man. Scripture speaks about God bringing about the new birth through His Word (e.g., Jas 1:18, etc.).
faith is not the cause of regeneration, the new birth is not dependent on the will of man. The Holy Spirit accomplishes regeneration without the aid of man: repenting, believing, receiving and baptizing.
but doesn’t positional sanctification start in regeneration else you have a regenerating grace and a sanctifing grace (back to wesleyanism – two works of grace)
So why make a free offer to the sinner and command him to repent? (You should be able to affirm this with what you stated previously any offer and command comes after regeneration/positional sanctification.
Justification should not be confused with neither regeneration nor sanctification. For certain not regeneration! It was confered at calvary or eternity past in council. (I prefer the council of the trinity before the foundation of the world was laid)
As it looks like our discussion has come to a close, I had a few concluding remarks that I would like to make. I will leave it to you to have the final word. First, I want to thank you for giving me the opportunity to express these truths here on your blog. For the most part you have kept a gracious tone throughout and that has allowed us to have a discussion with substance (without wasting our time with personal accusations, etc.). I know that my tone can sometimes sound sharp, as I am in the position of preaching the Law (so to speak) in rebuking what I see as a profoundly dangerous error that is increasingly creeping into the evangelical church and is in reality attacking the very foundation of our Christian faith. I know the spirit behind this, and when I write harshly I mean to address this spirit, not you and others personally. I thank you for the courtesy that you have given me.
I now leave you with three thoughts. First, in asserting and defending the truth of the universal atonement of Christ and the necessary resulting universal Gospel, I have shown you no departure from the Word of God – none at all. If you are an honest man, this should bother you, and should not be quickly dismissed. To dismiss something that is provably true to the Word of God is to harden your heart against Christ, and you should know that He may never give you such a gracious visitation again. “Today, if you hear His voice, etc.”
Secondly, you take some comfort in the fact that you affirm both a particular aspect and a universal aspect to the Gospel, but this is a false comfort, as evidenced by the fact that you cannot tell me, Stuart Wood, that Christ died for my sins (which is indeed the Gospel). Your theology, which tolerates the false doctrine of limited atonement, negates the one and only true Gospel, and there is no way around that. You cannot sit on the fence when it comes to the true Gospel. Here the statement is true, “he who is not with Me, is against Me”.
Thirdly, limited atonement leaves you trusting in your own faith for salvation, which is idolatry. When I asked you about the grounds upon which you believe you are saved, you said (comment #28), “if I trust in Christ… He will grant…”. And this is not to put words in your mouth, for you can have no other position so long as you hold to the lie of limited atonement. The objective Word of God does not leave you in this predicament. Take, for example, the Israelites being bitten in the wilderness and the brazen serpent Moses set up on the pole. The Word of God said to them that if they wanted to be healed of their snakebites, they must simply look at the brazen serpent and they would be healed. Do you think any of those suffering Israelites were thinking in terms of – if I trust, He will grant, etc.? No, their only concern was with the objective promise of the Word of God. Based only upon that promise, they looked and were healed. The same goes for the story of Naaman the Leper with the instructions to go to the Jordan and wash seven times. So it also was with the blind man in John 9 going to the Pool of Siloam, etc. It is always this way. The truly believing person does not concern himself with his faith, but rather looks away from himself altogether and looks only to the objective verifiable Word of God. This Word of God tells us that “Christ died for our sins”, yes, ours, yours, James, and mine. That is Good News.
Pastor Wood
http://fromonewecanjudgetherest.blogspot.com/search/label/Authored%20by%20Pr.%20Stuart%20Wood
Pastor Wood:
Yes, our discussion has come to a close, and yes, I’ll take this opportunity to speak the final word.
First, I affirm both the universal and particular aspects of the atonement as addressed in Scripture. This is not sitting on the fence. Rather than hardening my heart against Christ, I seek to honor Him by honoring all of His written word. I am not against Christ, but for Him. Pastor Wood, I can tell you that Christ died for your sins, and do so gladly.
Second, I am not trusting in my own faith for salvation, but Christ alone. Trusting in one’s faith is, indeed, idolatry, as is trusting one’s baptism. One must trust God alone in Christ Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Even faith itself is a gift from God (Eph. 2:8-9), and is in no way a work. Look at my comment (#28) in context. There I stated: “The basis on which I believe Christ died for my sins is simply the promise of the Gospel. . . . God promised me (and all) that if I trusted in Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins that He would grant pardon on account of the Lord Jesus. Where do I derive that knowledge? Objectively, and most importantly, from the promise of God, which comes from His Word.” How is this any different than the analogy from the OT you utilize, wherein the Israelites were told to look at the brazen serpent? You stated, “The Word of God said to them that if they wanted to be healed of their snakebites, they must simply look at the brazen serpent and they would be healed. Do you think any of those suffering Israelites were thinking in terms of – if I trust, He will grant, etc.? No, their only concern was with the objective promise of the Word of God. Based only upon that promise, they looked and were healed.” Were they healed because they looked (i.e., their own action), or because they trusted the promise of God (i.e., “Look and be healed”)? There were plenty who did not believe God, who did not look, and perished. You are correct, “The truly believing person does not concern himself with his faith, but rather looks away from himself altogether and looks only to the objective verifiable Word of God.” This is essentially what I have stated.
You are welcome for having the opportunity to express your views, and I’m glad you have felt I have (for the most part) kept a gracious tone throughout. May the Lord bless you as you proclaim the Gospel of our gracious God within your congregation and to the lost world.
Dr. Galyon,
I know I had said I had closed, but there is a significant change here. Before, when I gave you my test and asked you whether your theology would allow you to tell me (Stuart Wood) that Christ died for my (Stuart Wood’s) sins, you said (comment #23), “I’m not sure I agree with your test, in that I think it is perfectly acceptable to say “Christ died for sinners.” Guess that makes me a heretic in your view…” Now you are telling me (Comment #79), “Pastor Wood, I can tell you that Christ died for your sins, and do so gladly.” On what basis can you now tell me this? Have you made a change in your position? I do not think that Rosie or any other limited atoners would agree with you (time to weigh in Rosie). We talked about this on another blog for over a month, and all asserted that they could not say this (including Phil Johnson who was quoted at length).
Pastor Wood
http://fromonewecanjudgetherest.blogspot.com/search/label/Authored%20by%20Pr.%20Stuart%20Wood
Pastor Wood:
First, Are you a believer? Have you trusted in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins? I honestly don’t doubt that you are a Christian and are concerned greatly about our Lord and His Gospel.
Second, I’ve maintained all along that the atonement has both universal and particular aspects. So, no, my position hasn’t changed. The death of Christ is sufficient for all, it is efficient only for the elect and applied only to them.
Third, if my “Calvinist Card” needs to be revoked, Thomas will definitely alert me to that fact.
BTW, Pastor Wood, don’t we proclaim the “particular” Gospel (for lack of a better term) when we observe the sacred ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper? That is, we proclaim that those who are baptized and those who partake of communion have been forgiven for their sins? This does not change my view, but rather, I understand that this proclamation is given specifically to believers.
Pastor Wood, would you address my previously asked question?
Would you say that the sin of Heb 10:26 is a sin of believers, regenerate, sanctified and that they will go to heaven and there face an awful calamity in judgement? Is this sinners or saints in the hands of an angry God?
Charles
Charles,
If you could take this over to my friend’s blog for the moment, I will try to answer you there.
http://fromonewecanjudgetherest.blogspot.com/search/label/Authored%20by%20Pr.%20Stuart%20Wood
I want to keep the focus here on my conversation with Dr. Galyon.
Thanks so much for your patience,
Pastor Wood
Dr. Galyon,
I’m not meaning to irritate you, but please bear with me as this is very important. From what you just wrote, I can see that your position has not changed. However, you are telling me that Christ died for my sins based upon what YOU perceive to know about me – that I appear to be a believer. But the problem is that you cannot really know that I am a believer, as no man can with certainty know another man’s heart. I could fool you on this, just as I can fool myself. Your subjective knowedge of me would be far too weak for my faith to rest upon. But again, this is where limited atonement leaves you. How much better to know with certainty that God Himself has said that He died for my sins, and to know that it cannot fail because God cannot lie (Heb. 6:18; Tit. 1:2). “Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God” (Rom. 10:17).
Pastor Wood
http://fromonewecanjudgetherest.blogspot.com/search/label/Authored%20by%20Pr.%20Stuart%20Wood
Pastor Wood:
From the Apostle Paul in Colossians 1 (vv 21-23) – And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before Him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven…
Here St. Paul speaks of the Colossians as redeemed, provided they “continue in the faith.” I’ll not get into a discussion regarding perseverance here, since we have a similar (though obviously not identical) take on that doctrine. However, if the Apostle is able to make this pronouncement to the believes in Colossae, may not any minister do so with his congregation or with fellow Christians? I would not make this pronouncement to one who had come under church discipline and was excommunicated.
pastor Wood
can’t get the comment to work on your blog.
“Third, if my “Calvinist Card” needs to be revoked, Thomas will definitely alert me to that fact.”
Speaking of which, I haven’t received your dues for this month. My agents will be contacting you.
“Pastor Wood, I can tell you that Christ died for your sins, and do so gladly.”
And so would I, if you said you believed.
I don’t discount the sufficency of the atonement. It was fully adequate, beyond measure for the efficient cause that it was sacrificed to achieve. Dr. Galyon and I are close enough on this account that I don’t know that we differ in any substantive way. I call him Dr. because he is more smartsie than I am, but I call him friend because he is willing to recieve it and dish it and does not avoid the straight answer as you always do, stuart.
You have a love for controversy and I am convinced that you not only are a heretic in the first sense but the second, also. You cause division and not from a mistaken view, but from a hatred of the truth.
Are you saved? You know- unless you are waiting for something.
I can say Christ died for your sins tempered with, if you are believing. But if you are not, what would it matter? For a man who doubts should not think he would receive anything from God. John makes this clear, “For God loved the world this way…that the believing ones should not perish…but if you are not believing, it is because you were condemned already.” Take that Gospel out of John to the world if you are going to take any of it. That is the more literal transliteration. So the only ones that are saved, are the only ones that can be saved, and only those given to the Son are the ones the Father draws and whoever he draws will look to the Son of promise, because they were promised before the creation of the world and that is the assurance of the faith in the Promise. Sufficient for all, without doubt, but particularly shed salvifically for the elect. It is in His blood where the promise was put into effect and under his blood we, the heirs are, in the Holy of Hollies, purchased by him, and seated with him, we wait in the flesh here for the redemption of our bodies when he will bring forth the blood of sacrifice shed for those who were given to him. Only those accounted in his blood will be sprinkled by the High Priest when he comes to claim his own.
But, I don’t want to argue with you stuart. Beat a drunk and he only wonders where to get another drink. That’s why you came to Dr. Galyon’s place, to pick a fight. That is why you came to mine and to johnMark’s. You keep getting beat to a pulp, and the only thing you want is another drink.
James
interesting! You afirm universal atonement as a “Calvinist” yet affirm particular.
Pastor Wood affirms universal atonement as a Luthern and denies limited/particular atonement. He unmak your Calvinism as false and I am saying that you connot be a true Calvinist and hold to both universal and limited aspects. He holds to the two wills theory as do you.
I just wish I could get him to answer my question.
Who sounds like the drunk here? I’ll let the readers decide. Also Rosie (Thomas), don’t you know that it is an abomination for a man to wear women’s garb? cf. Deut. 22:5
As for you, Dr. Galyon, I’ve stated as clearly as I can the necessity for the correct Gospel, and the damning results of departing from it. I believe that any objective honest reader can easily see the truth of what I have said. Thank you again for the opportunity.
Charles, try going in under anonymous and then state your name in your post. The other choices don’t seem to work very well.
Pastor Wood
http://fromonewecanjudgetherest.blogspot.com/search/label/Authored%20by%20Pr.%20Stuart%20Wood
Pastor Wood
It doesn’t work. I’vwe wasted too much time already seeking an answer so I will just answer my question for you. Don’t go out of your way to give ME an answer!
Thanks anyway
A frustrated brother in Christ who has wasted too much time!
Charles
“Also Rosie (Thomas), don’t you know that it is an abomination for a man to wear women’s garb? cf. Deut. 22:5.
I have changed my mind, you are idiotes not bradus.
Rosie refers to my blog. And I don’t think Rosie Grier would take kindly to your insult.
Rosie is also another name for a bright, cheerful countenance, but also means red, a fierce color. David was not just beautiful, he was a fierce warrior. Or, it simply means Adam, and refers to the clay out of which he was made. I know from where I was dug, how bout you? Oh that’s right, you have to dig your self out. Rosie can also be a type of homophone as in Rose He. And like the name of my blog A Rose By Any Other Name, just words, words, words, which might just signify the Resurrection.
Yes, I know what abominations are, like breaking the third commandment. To wear his name you must be called by it.
Like I said, take the whole Gospel, or none of it.
Charles,
Don’t worry. I have not forgotten you, but I just wanted to keep the flow of the discussion and was afraid that answering your question at that time would take us all on a tangeant. But now that the other conversation appears to be over, I do want to give you a fair answer as to how I understand Heb. 10:26, “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.”
You ask, “Would you say that the sin of Heb 10:26 is a sin of believers, regenerate, sanctified and that they will go to heaven and there face an awful calamity in judgement? Is this sinners or saints in the hands of an angry God?
I believe that this verse speaks of the ultimate sin of apostasy away from Christ and the holy Gospel despite the Spirit-revealed knowledge of the truth. It is the “sin against the Holy Ghost” of which Christ spoke in Matt. 12. It is “the unpardonable sin”, and can occur with BOTH believers and unbelievers. In the Matthew passage, it is addressed to unbelievers. Here it is a warning addressed to believers. As I had mentioned above (comment #25), it is coming to the final hardened state of either staying outside of the Passover house (unbelievers), or once and for all leaving the Passover house despite God’s loving warnings (believers). Ultimately, it is only God’s true elect who enter and stay within the Passover house (the Gospel) and heed God’s warnings of loss, remaining in the house unto the end. Here is where I would see the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints in the correct way (cf. my article, “Taking the Mask off Calvinism” for a fuller explanation. You might also want to review the comments I made about the special nature of the sin of unbelief (Comment #48).
I hope this helps. Sorry to have kept you waiting so long.
Pastor Wood
“Thus, while the person is truly forgiven, he is unable to receive that forgiveness due to his unbelief, and thus dies without it.”
Pstor Wood
Is this person then saved or lost?
Charles,
Sadly, this person would be lost. Think of Christ’s atoning work like a vast reservoir containing the forgiveness of sins for all men wrought by His suffering and death upon the Cross. The forgiveness, however, must come to you through the pipeline of faith. If a person does not believe the truth of what Christ objectively did FOR HIM, then his pipeline is blocked by this unbelief and he dies without the forgiveness that was truly wrought for him. He did not believe the objective truth spoken TO HIM for his benefit by a God who cannot lie.
However, it is important to understand that this faith too is a gift of God and is created in the sinner by the Word of God itself. A great analogy is with the raising of Lazurus. Lazurus was dead, and was unable of himself to respond to the Word of God. But when Christ said, “Lazurus, come forth”, this very same Word which spoke to him also wrought in him the ability to respond and to come forth. All was of the Word, but yet Lazurus did indeed respond by the power of that Word.
So it is with the Gospel. The objective Gospel Word is sent to the individual sinner and says, “Christ died for YOUR sins”. By God’s grace (via the power of the Word), the individual (who is dead in his trespasses and sins) responds with faith and is also raised from the dead. Why this happens to some and not to others, we leave as a mystery. We do not attribute any “differences” in man (as some men do), nor do we fault God for the sinner’s own unbelief.
Pastor Wood
O.K. dear Rosie, you can remain a closet homophone, and I’m not going to judge you. To each their own.
First let me state that I am an elderly person who by God’s grace has given me interest in the Word of God since I was a very young girl and remember vividly the Pastor reading “Sanctify them through thy truth, thy Word is truth” (John 17:17). I have been following this blog with great interest and as I read it I saw a glaring error in No. 23. Quote “yet I believe very strongly that all individuals must be told that God demands their repentance and faith in Christ alone for salvation”. When Jesus died on the cross and said “It is finished.” Salvation was completed for all. The sins of all in all the world had/has been redeemed. God doesn’t demand anything. The sinful ego always wants to add something or take something away or do something, but Jesus said, “It is finished!!” Believe it!!! I understand fully what Pastor Wood is conveying and why it is so important.
May God Bless us all,
Kathy
Kathy:
I’m very glad you have in interest in God’s Word. I’m also grateful you have been following this blog with a great deal of interest. I wonder, though, what the “glaring error” is in stating that “all individuals must be told that God demands their repentance and faith in Christ alone for salvation”? Are you coming at this from a “universalist” perspective, that is, do you believe that all people are saved already because of the “finished work of Christ”? I contend that Apostolic preaching, as evidenced by the Apostle Paul on Mars Hill, for example, shows us that God now calls people to repentance and faith. Acts 17:30 says, “God…commands all people everywhere to repent.” Thanks for commenting, Kathy.
Thank you, Kathy, for this beautiful and sincere testimony to the blessed work and Gospel of our God and Saviour, Christ Jesus. Like Paul said to Agrippa, “I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as (we are)” (Acts 26:29). When Paul saw the unbelief of his lost Jewish brethren, he showed the very heart of God and said, “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh” (Rom. 9:3). Those who hold to limited atonement would have us believe that Paul’s love was greater than Christ’s.
God’s blessings to you,
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
“Those who hold to limited atonement would have us believe that Paul’s love was greater than Christ’s.” Out of bounds, sir! Go back and read this post, not to mention others related to this topic, in their entirety. Our Lord Jesus wept over Jerusalem, did He not? He loved the Rich Young Ruler, did He not? Please don’t throw out such nonsense here. The Apostle Paul certainly had a tremendous amount of compassion for His fellow Jews, but nothing near as great as the love of God for them. Not even close. Please!
“closet homophone” Stuart, you suprise me, you do have a sense of humor.
“also wrought in him the ability to respond and to come forth.”
Actually, no. “The man who had died came out, his hands and feet bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. (If you have any knowledge of the burial practices, it would be beyond imagining to think that he came out on his own.) Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” Just what happened under those grave clothes we don’t know. We do know that he could not come forth on his own. So how he did? The sequence seems to indicate a supernatural bringing forth. In either case, even if brought forth by others, it was not due to his ability.
As we have discussed so many times, “Faith comes by hearing” where does the faculty of hearing come from? I agree it is the Word, but the spoken word? It could be simultaneous, but does not need to be. And faith does not speak necessarily of regeneration, or of the gift of faith which trusts, but may only need refer to the knowledge of it and of its object.
Preach the whole counsel and not snippets.
Lazarus was helped by the people to unwrap the package. And we might look at this in the sense that others explain to us the faith but we can not even hear that except that we are regenerated. If that is the case by example in Lazarus’ resurrection, then regeneration precedes the ability to hear the words of faith and by them is faith built in the hearer. Also note in this passage, it was not in response to the preaching of the Gospel, but in response to prayer and the Gospel preached was to Mary and Martha and those listening, and not to Lazarus. It is the command to come forth that raises Lazarus, not the Gospel.
All of what I have said is consistent with, “Unless one in born from above, he cannot iedo, hear, see, understand the things of the kingdom.” First regeneration, then faith and as Jesus said, it is by the Spirit, and not the words spoken, but without a doubt by the eternal Spirit of the Word (of promise), Titus 1:1. I know you reject the regeneration of men in the womb, but you do so at certain peril. For there is no way to escape the phenomenon of John the Baptist, filled with the Holy Spirit in the womb. Nor do I think you want to dispatch all infants to hell of whom it is obvious, they cannot, especially in those who have died though abortion, both natural and unnatural, understand the words of the Gospel. Lazaruz, will dead, could not either.
Don’t argue, just humbly submit to what is written, all of it.
Thank you, Dr. Galyon, for your response to my comment and in answer to your question, I am not a “universalist in the sense that eventually everyone will be saved but I do believe that Christ has atoned for the sins of the whole world.
In regard to the scriptures you refer to I guess I would say that Paul is using the word command in an evangelical sense here, whereas your statement “demand repentance and faith” seem to be more in a legal sense, as evidenced by other postings here.
I would see this “command” no different than Paul’s statement to the Phillipian jailer, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.” This verse of yours is also very interesting in that it plainly asserts a universal gospel. For here Paul says “God commands all men everywhere to repent.” What could be more plain and more pertinent to our discussion here than this.
Blessings,
Kathy
Thank you
Kathy
Kathy:
Thanks for following up and answering the “universalist” question. Of course, as has been asserted in this post, the atonement has both universal and particular aspects. The universal aspects certainly mean a call for all people everywhere to heed the Gospel, but it does not negate the particular aspects. The atonement is sufficient for all, but efficient only for the elect.
Dr. Galyon,
There is nothing at all “out of bounds” about that statement I made. If the false doctrine of limited atonement were true, then it means that Christ DID NOT wish Himself accursed for those who did not believe. However, if possible, Paul would wish himself accursed for the sake of his lost unbelieving brethren. This would make Paul’s love for the unbelieving greater than Christ’s (if limited atonement were true – which it is not).
Please, tell me how that is not correct?
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
You stated, “Those who hold to limited atonement would have us believe that Paul’s love was greater than Christ’s.” That is a patently false statement.
Tell me, since you affirm the doctrine of election, do you believe God loves the elect with a special love? Or do you believe God loves all people equally?
Dr. Galyon,
I will stand by my statement, thank you very much. It is not patently false, but patently true. If Christ DID NOT wish Himself accursed for those who did not believe (as limited atoners assert), and Paul would wish himself accursed for the those who did not believe(as the Scriptures assert), then it necessarily follows that Paul’s love for unbelievers was greater than Christ’s.
As I asked before, tell me how that is not correct? I don’t believe you have an answer to that.
Pastor Wood
Pastor Wood:
1) That’s not what we (in historic Reformed theology) teach, therefore your statement is patently false. We would not have you “believe that Paul’s love was greater than Christ’s.” That is not only false, but absurd. You’re familiar with MacArthur. If you haven’t already, why don’t you read his book, ‘The Love of God’. Your assumptions are not equivalent to our convictions.
2) Care to answer the question about election?
James
You do believe in hypothetical universal atonement and limited atonement. One a desire to save all men and the other a will to save only the elect.
Isn’t this Amyraldianism? Isn’t this hypo-Calvinism? Doesn’t this blur, terribly, Calvinism and make it seem that you are loving all sinners and telling them to repent and on the other hand telling another crowd that only the elect are saved?
Charles:
You may read my post on the will of God in answer to your question.
Pastor Wood
Gladly, I think this person would be saved but sadly he will suffer a calamity in the judgement of rewards. It will be a feiry indignation!
Dr. Galyon,
I understand that no one would want to explicitly teach such a ridiculous assertion as that Paul’s love for unbelievers was greater than Christ’s, but that is exactly where historic Reformed theology leaves you if it affirms the false doctrine of limited atonement. This is not based upon my or anyone else’s “assumptions”, but rather it is based upon the absolutely true and necessary consequence of asserting a limited atonement. There is no way for you to deny it. It is irrefutable.
Again I ask, tell me how that is not correct?
Pastor Wood
Stuart:
You stated, “Those who hold to limited atonement would have us believe that Paul’s love was greater than Christ’s.”
I, for one, would not have you believe that. John MacArthur, for another, would not have you believe that. We, and others within the historic Reformed camp, would have you believe that God loves the world; that Jesus loved the Rich Young Ruler; that Jesus wept over Jerusalem. Therefore, your statement is false. I deny your assumption because I would not have someone believe what you are asserting.
Now do you care to answer the question about election, or continue evading it? Since you affirm the doctrine of election, do you believe God loves the elect with a special love, or that God loves all people equally?
Dr. Galyon,
I am not evading your second question, but I am not ready to let you off the hook on this one.
Obviously, you, MacArthur, and other limited atoners would not have us believe that Paul’s love for unbelievers is greater than Christ’s, but that is not the point. The point is that YOUR THEOLOGY necessarily asserts this, even if you don’t want it to. As I have said, If Christ DID NOT wish Himself accursed for those who did not believe (as limited atoners assert), and Paul would wish himself accursed for the those who did not believe(as the Scriptures assert), then it necessarily follows that Paul’s love for unbelievers was greater than Christ’s. There is no way out. That is, in effect, what you hold to whether you admit it or not.
Pastor Wood
Stuart:
You state, “Obviously, you, MacArthur, and other limited atoners would not have us believe that Paul’s love for unbelievers is greater than Christ’s, but that is not the point.” Actually, that is the point.
You state, “The point is YOUR THEOLOGY necessarily asserts this, even if you don’t want it to.” Actually, my theology doesn’t assert this. It doesn’t assert it at all. My theology asserts both the love of God for all and the special love of God for His people. My theology asserts that the atonement has universal and particular aspects. My theology asserts that the love of God is greater than anything we can imagine, that His love far exceeds the deepest level of compassion we could ever feel (such as we see with the Apostle Paul).
Your theology asserts baptized individuals fall from grace, that forgiven sinners are condemned. Have I told you what your theology “necessarily asserts” in light of this? No, sir. I’ve respected your views and comments on this blog. I’ve not said such things as, “Your theology necessarily asserts that sinners have absolutely no basis for hope in the death of Christ. After all, the baptized can still be lost, and those forgiven for their sins can still be punished for their sins.” I’ve not declared that your theology “necessarily asserts” a denial of sola fide. After all, if an individual can “fall from grace,” then your theology “necessarily asserts” that an individual “works” for their own salvation by remaining faithful. Now, in regard to these last two sentences, please don’t give a rebuttal. I already know what your theology *actually* asserts, and respect Lutheranism enough not to tell you what it “necessarily asserts.”
You’ve pulled out the “mystery” card in regard to election/falling, etc. Why is it that non-Lutherans aren’t granted that same card by you? Simply because we’re not within the bounds of *your* orthodoxy? The Christian/Evangelical world is larger than the Lutheran Church, Stuart. The same Scripture which asserts that Jesus is the “Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” also asserts that Jesus layed down His life “for the sheep.” Jesus was given His name because His mission was to “save His people from their sins,” and yet “for God so loved the world He gave His only begotten Son.” The cup of communion, when instituted by Christ, was said to commemorate His death and that His blood was shed “for many for the remission of sins.” Mystery, Stuart. Mystery.
If, after this point, you don’t want to “let me off the hook,” that’s fine, but I won’t be nibbling.
James
I apologize for the oversight and had forgotten you had previously answered the question in the two wills post
“I think Amyraut was misunderstood at many points, and that many overreacted to what he was actually teaching. I certainly don’t agree with all he had to say, but think his thoughts are helpful in this discussion. In all fairness to him, I believe he was attempting to explain both the universal and particular aspects of the atonement while trying to remain faithful to Reformed doctrine.”
Dr. Galyon,
If an Arminian tells us that God’s election is conditioned upon foreseen faith, and we tell him that that would be “necessarily asserting” that God is not sovereign and that also “necessarily asserting” glory to man. And he would then say, “away with you, you slanderer, we never said that we didn’t believe in God’s sovereignty. We do not hold to glory being to man. We leave this as a mystery, etc.” Would you accept that answer? I would not.
The difference between what I am saying your theology “necessarily asserts” and what you say orthodox Lutheran (Christian) theology “necessarily asserts” is this. With orthodox Lutheran theology, I can show you plainly how you are wrong, that is, that it does not at all “necessarliy assert” what you are saying. However, with your theology, you cannot show me how I am wrong, you cannot show me how it does not “necessarily assert” this.
You say that we must leave this as a “mystery”. So here is the “mystery” – According to you, the Scriptures say that Christ did not have a love that would go so far as to wish Himself accursed for those who did not believe. Paul, however, did have a love that would go so far as to wish himself accursed for those who did not believe. But you say, Christ’s love is still greater than Paul’s even though we can’t understand that. We must leave it as a “mystery”. Sorry, Dr., I would not be comfortable with a “mystery’ like that.
Pastor Wood
I’m a homophone and I resent Pastor Wood’s remark. I was born this way.
My dad was a ballet dancer, and mom drove a truck to keep bread on the
table.
Besides i have alot of friends named Rosie.
Bubba
ps. be nice and i could get you all front row seats at next years doo-dah parade. I got connections.
just for clarrification, James, do you think that Pastor Woods does not think you are a Christian? Pastor Wood do you think that James is a Christian?
Pastor Wood seems to possess hyper-Luthern beliefs and such beliefs are often exclusive to the believers.
Though I post about my strong “high” Calvinist beliefs I would never say thatr one who does not hold my belief is a non-Christian, be he clearly Arminian. God’s grace in salvation transcends our belief systems, theories if you will. We can agree to disagree. Naturally this does mean there is a line not to be crossed into dangerous theology with a narrow and closed mind.
Charles:
It will be up to Pastor Wood to answer your question. For my part, as I stated previously in this comment stream, I do believe Pastor Wood is a Christian man and has a great concern for the Word of God. Of course, Charles, I believe the same of you.
never for a moment thought you doubted my faith. Just wanted to reassure that I didn’t doubt yours. I will continue to be right and you wrong and that won’t interfere in our brotherhood! wink, wink
Charles:
I’m glad you’ve got a sense of humor!
Charles gots humor. I pray for a miracle.
Dr. Galyon,
I have actually grown fond of you through these discussions, and do feel that you have engaged with me in a patient and gracious way. So for me the issue is not an issue of your person, but rather an issue of truth.
In answer to Charles’ question, I do believe that a person is only saved through faith in the one and only true objective Gospel, how that “Christ died for our sins”. And I do believe that it is necessary that this faith be derived from the Word of God itself and not from one’s experience or discernment of one’s own faith. As Luther said, “if anyone is saved outside of this, he is saved above and beyond the rule”.
God’s blessings,
Pastor Wood
sense of humor gets you thru hard times and out of a mess of trouble
read and comment on my recent post
http://watchinghidtory.blogspot.com/2009/03/historical-root-of-burlesons-ambivalent.html
I was taken on a tour of heaven and was showed all the houses and we came to a big brick wall and I ask who is in this house and the guide said shhhhh they are the Lutherns and they think they are the only ones here. True story!
Have you seen the new Berkhof collection from Logos Bible Software? I thought you might be interested:
Louis Berkhof Collection (14 Vols.)