Clear Creek Baptist Bible College in Pineville, Kentucky, receives part of its funding from the generous gifts of Kentucky Baptists through the Cooperative Program. Clear Creek College includes in its institutional objectives the provision of “a quality Bible-based education with an emphasis on practical Christian service,” and to “initiate and maintain cooperative relationships with individual Christians, churches, associations and conventions.” Educational goals of the school include “an increase in knowledge and understanding of the Bible and Christian theology,” and “a sensitivity to the needs of people and the ability to minister from a biblical perspective.” Within its core values, Clear Creek speaks of the “Centrality of Christ” and the commitment to “patiently work for His unity among us.” Another core value of the school is for Clear Creek to act as a “Servant of the Churches.” This means that the school “exists to train individuals sent to us by the churches. We commit ourselves to serve the needs of the churches.”
With these objectives and goals in mind, a friend of mine (a Baptist pastor who serves in the Bluegrass State) sent an e-mail to me with an attachment regarding a conference being held by this institution next month: “Meeting the Calvinist Challenge.” He was not pleased that financial gifts he and other Kentucky Baptists (many who, like him and SBTS President Al Mohler, are “Calvinists”) contribute to the CP are being used to denounce the doctrines of grace.
I certainly believe Dr. Donnie Fox, Clear Creek’s president, trustees, faculty and staff members have the right as Baptists not to affirm the doctrines of grace. The truth is, due to the liberty of conscience, they may disagree fully with these doctrines. The trustees have done just that, declaring publicly a few years ago their institution which serves Baptists will “not teach, promote or endorse Calvinism.” I believe the trustees also have the right to steer the school in the direction they deem best. I question, however, whether hosting such a conference at the school carries out the aims delineated by the institution. Dr. Fox speaks about students facing the challenge of being “converted” to Calvinism. Such language seems to pit those who adhere to the doctrine of grace against the Gospel and their fellow Christians, as if Calvinists seek merely the “conversion” of individuals to a theological worldview rather than to being fully committed followers of Jesus Christ. Topics to be addressed at the conference include: “Does the Gospel of John teach unconditional election?”; and “Calvinism’s effect on the public invitation.” I imagine the presentations at the conference will declare explicitly that Scripture does not affirm the doctrine of election and that Calvinism negates the evangelistic imperative (with the view that the altar call is the sole means of extending a public invitation).
It might prove useful for the organizers of the upcoming conference to consider a sermon from one of the founders and second president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, John Broadus:
Concern for the salvation of others is not prevented by a belief in what we call the doctrines of grace; is not prevented by believing in divine sovereignty, and predestination and election. Many persons intensely dislike the ideas which are expressed by these phrases. Many persons shrink away from ever accepting them, because those ideas are in their minds associated with the notion of stolid indifference. They say if predestination be true, then it follows that a man cannot do anything for his own salvation; that if he is to be saved he will be saved, and he has nothing to do with it, and need not care, nor need any one else care.
Now, this does not at all follow, and I will prove that it does not follow, by the fact that Paul himself, the great oracle of this doctrine in the Scripture, has uttered these words of burning passionate concern for the salvation of others, so close by the passages in which he has taught the doctrines in question. Look back from the text, run back a few sentences and you will find the very passage upon which many stumble: “Moreover, whom he did predestinate” — there are people who shudder at the very words — “them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
Just a little while after he uttered those words from which men want to infer that the man who believes it need not feel concerned for his salvation or the salvation of others, just a little after, came the passionate words of the text. Nor is that all, for you will find just following the text, where he speaks of Esau and Jacob, that God made a difference between them before they were born, and where he says of Pharaoh that God raised him up that he might show his power in him, and that God’s name might be declared through out all the earth. “Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Some good people fairly shiver at the inference, which seems to them to be inevitable from such language as that. But I say the inference must be wrong, for the inspired man who uttered this language, only a few moments before had uttered these words of the text.
And whenever you find your heart or the heart of your friend inclined to shrink away from these great teachings of divine Scripture concerning sovereignty and predestination, then I pray you make no argument about it, but turn to this language of concern for the salvation of others, so intensely passionate that men wonder and think surely it cannot mean what it says. The trouble is in this and many cases that we draw unwarranted inferences from the teachings of the Bible, and then cast all the odium of those inferences upon the truths from which we draw them. Now, I say that whatever be true, for or against the apostle’s doctrines of predestination and divine sovereignty in salvation, it is not true that they will make a man careless as to his own salvation or that of others; seeing that they had no such effect on Paul himself, but right in between these two great passages come the wonderful words of the text.
[Excerpt from Broadus' sermon, "Intense Concern for the Salvation of Others"
in Sermons and Addresses (Hodder & Stoughton: New York, 1886)]
The conference is being held, according to Dr. Fox, at the request of “students and church leaders.” Obviously, the church leaders requesting the conference do not represent all Baptists in Kentucky.
Concern for the salvation of others is not prevented by a belief in what we call the doctrines of grace; is not prevented by believing in divine sovereignty, and predestination and election. Many persons intensely dislike the ideas which are expressed by these phrases. Many persons shrink away from ever accepting them, because those ideas are in their minds associated with the notion of stolid indifference. They say if predestination be true, then it follows that a man cannot do anything for his own salvation; that if he is to be saved he will be saved, and he has nothing to do with it, and need not care, nor need any one else care.
Hey Rev,
Great post.
But in principle, does anyone really have the “right” to be wrong in their theology? Wouldn’t that be an affront to the stated ideal of the Protestant reformation, namely that doctrinal purity is the basis of Christian unity?
Perhaps it would be better to just say that due to liberty of conscience the trustees of CCBBC may in fact disagree on this point and should not be forced by any authority other than Scripture and those secondary authorities believed to be established by Scripture (just leaving room for theories of church gov’t beyond a purely democratic congregationalism) to submit themselves to any particular doctrine.
What do you think?
Your make an excellent point writing which is based on that the Protestant ideal writing: Dr. Fox speaks about students facing the challenge of being “converted” to Calvinism. Such language seems to pit those who adhere to the doctrine of grace against the Gospel and their fellow Christians, as if Calvinists seek merely the “conversion” of individuals to a theological worldview rather than to being fully committed followers of Jesus Christ.
Also, great quote from Dr. Broadus. I especially liked: The trouble is in this and many cases that we draw unwarranted inferences from the teachings of the Bible, and then cast all the odium of those inferences upon the truths from which we draw them. Very true.
Jay: You’re correct. No one has the “right” to hold aberrant theology. “Due to the liberty of conscience…” Yep. That’s a much better phrase!
Great post, great quote from Broadus. I’ve said something similar to my Sunday School class many times… though not nearly as eloquently!
Just a slight correction submitted by a proud (and Reformed) Southern Seminary Alumn…..but James P. Boyce was the first president of The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Broadus was #2.
That’s what happens when I blog past midnight, Bryan.
Note the correction. Thanks!
James,
Thank you for your comments on our blog. I was not a Calvinist most of the time I was at CCBBC, but I was always bothered by the way my Calvinist brothers were treated. In my last year at CCBBC, I embraced Calvinism. I had hoped that with the change in administration things would change; however, I see that they have not.
I hope that you were also able to see what we are trying to accomplish here in North Eastern Michigan. Our society is associated with the Alliance of Confession Evangelicals. Our purpose is to educate and encourage pastors, church leaders, and churches to remain faithful to the historic Christian faith as expressed in both the ancient and post-reformation creeds. We are attempting to accomplish this task by meeting together across denominational lines, have Reformation Bible studies, preaching on specific topics, blogging, and praying together for reformation and revival.
We would appreciate if you could help others to catch our vision by providing a link to our website on your website or websites. In addition, please frequent our blog yourself. We update it at least once a week at the beginning of the week.
God Bless You,
Pastor Jeremy Lee
Jeremy:
Thanks for dropping by 2WC. I’m pleased to know of your society. Two friends of mine (one a Baptist and one a Presbyterian) and I established a fraternal in the D/FW area about a dozen years ago. We had wonderful fellowship between Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, and others. I’ll be glad to link to your blog.
James
One of the things that disturbs me about this kind of action it the obvious obcurantism and anti-intellectualism that it displays. It is very typical with in “F”undamentalism to lock out pertinent data. What is to fear if the doctrine that is the foundation of the school is sound? Our ability to defend truth should be greater than any threat to it, shouldn’t it?
Calvinism is no threat, nor is its contrary. The only threat to truth is if all witnesses cannot be heard.
I have not heard, but does this college teach without predjudice, history and doctrine? It is required within the BFM’s education/missions clause:
“Christianity is the faith of enlightenment and intelligence. In Jesus Christ abide all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. All sound learning is, therefore, a part of our Christian heritage. The new birth opens all human faculties and creates a thirst for knowledge. Moreover, the cause of education in the Kingdom of Christ is co-ordinate with the causes of missions and general benevolence, and should receive along with these the liberal support of the churches. An adequate system of Christian education is necessary to a complete spiritual program for Christ’s people.
In Christian education there should be a proper balance between academic freedom and academic responsibility. Freedom in any orderly relationship of human life is always limited and never absolute. The freedom of a teacher in a Christian school, college, or seminary is limited by the pre-eminence of Jesus Christ, by the authoritative nature of the Scriptures, and by the distinct purpose for which the school exists.”
It is required of their faculty to agree with the NCF and the BFM.
From their catalogue of required course work: Bible/Theology; Baptist Doctrine; Ethics; Church History.
They may excuse themselves from academic resposibility by the distinct purpose clause, but shouldn’t they make it known that their position is to indoctrinate by exclusion? And don’t they owe it to their contributors and students to make it clear that they reject the historic SBC foundations, and why? But then, wouldn’t they need to teach Calvinism to do that? It appears that not only are they in violation of the BFM, but their own ethics standards and course work requirements. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to decieve.
James
I have a question. Today I ask my JW friend if he thought that God knew all that Satan would do to Job. He said no. He said God gave Satan a ceiling to operate in but did not know all the details as to what he would do to Job. That would violate free will if God knew all that Satan would do. I suppose he equates foreknowledge with determinism. He said that God in his sovereignty chooses not to know. He says that quite often.
What do you think?
Charles
On the one hand, I think your JW friend sounds a lot like many Southern Baptists I’ve heard discuss the issue. On the other hand, I disagree completely with him. Of course God knew what would take place. If God is so concerned with “free will” in the account, then why include chapters 38-42? Didn’t the evil one’s attack “violate” Job’s free will? He didn’t ask for it, didn’t invite it or give permission for it. It took place because God brought it upon him. Who brings up Job first, God or satan? Who gives satan permission to attack Job? Who sets limits on the attack? God is sovereign. That is a major theme of the book.
James
To hear it from a theologian like yourself does an armchair theologian’s heart good.
The exact thought I had at the time. How similar his answer to many Baptist (Evangelicals) today. In fact one of the comments I have made to John over and over is “you would make a good Baptist!” he always has a puzzled look on his face.
James
I just stumbled onto this blog.
I am a graduate (sad to say) from clear creek.
I credit God ultimately with converting me to the doctrines of grace, but He used the man-centeredness and their ignorance of the Scripture at clear creek to drive me in the direction of Calvinism.
The school would be better to drop the name of Baptist and Bible from their seal because they are more pelagian than they are true historical Baptist (by the way founded on the doctrines of grace).
One of the main issues at the conference will probably be “evangelism/missions”.
They teach at the school that if we are Calvinist then we cannot believe in evangelism/missions; HOWEVER IN THEIR MISSIONS CLASS THEY USED THE BOOK “LET THE NATIONS BE GLAD) authored by John Piper, who confesses to be a SEVEN POINT CALVINIST…
If I am not mistaken was not the founder of modern missions William Carey (a Calvinist)
Was not the founder of the first Baptist church in America a Calvinist named Roger Williams…need I say more.
This school is so heretical in it’s views of the sovereigenty of God that I would never recomend a student to go their unless they were pelegian (in which I would share the gospel)…I think you get the picture of what I think about clear creek…
Your brother in Christ
Paul Harris
Paul:
Thanks for dropping by 2WC. It is quite interesting, not to mention highly ironic, that a missions class at Clear Creek used Piper’s book while making the claim Calvinists cannot believe in missions/evangelism. Yes, William Carey was a Calvinist. So was Roger Williams, though Williams’ story is quite a bit different than Carey’s. Thanks for sharing your personal views of Clear Creek, especially as an alum. I hope you’ll drop back by and visit here at 2WC.
James
As a proud student of Clear Creek Baptist Bible College, I want to say in love that this conference is truly designed to inform and educate. While I personally believe in three out of the five doctrines of grace, I do not consider any four- or five-pointers “enemies” – I consider ALL Christians brothers in Christ. Just to clarify some of the earlier statements, I never heard Dr. Hughes or ANY Clear Creek personnel teach or claim that Calvinists don’t believe in the need for missions/evangelism. And the school certainly has a right to inform the (concerned) public about its official doctrine, core beliefs, and teaching curriculum. While Clear Creek certainly has had Calvinists pass through over the years, during my time here there has been a tremendous amount of love expressed among brothers genuinely seekng truth. I love each of you and respect your doctrinal beliefs – and can assure you that the faculty, staff, and students at Clear Creek are not seeking to cause division among the brethren.
With response to the posts that accuse CCBBC of “anti-intellectualism” and “lock[ing] out pertinent data,” I have never heard a professor condemn another student for bringing up a supposed “Calvinist” point. This conference will examine several issues and is designed to educate – not divide. Many students that come here have never heard of Calvinism and are unaware of what Calvinism really is. This will teach them what Clear Creek believes in regards to the doctrines of grace.
And, as far as having the right to have “wrong” theology, that is a matter of opinion. As far as we ALL are concerned, each of us believes we hold to the truth of Scripture. And while there are several interpretations of Scriptural truth, we won’t have it all figured out until we bow at the feet of Jesus. Which, by the way, will be a glorious day for us all. I love you in Christ!
Ed:
Thanks for dropping by 2WC. I hope you are correct about the design of the conference being to inform and educate, though I must confess I’m a bit reluctant about the accuracy of the information and education which will be disseminated. I also confess I’m concerned with whether or not this conference is seeking unity or division. From the titles of the presentations, I have a nagging suspicion that some people will continue to be “unaware of what Calvinism really is” because they will witness the erection of theological straw-men and hear stereotypical accusations. I honestly hope I’m wrong.
I’m glad you don’t consider your brothers in Christ as “enemies.” I trust you know we consider “non-5-pointers” as fellow Christians, granted they affirm that justification is a matter of grace alone through faith alone on account of Christ alone.
Thanks for your affirmation. The conference was a success (at least in my opinion) and I didn’t sense any effort made toward division or disunity. You can request a DVD copy of the entire conference from Clear Creek (and, if I remember correctly, the cost is around $22) to see for yourself. I hope we can all get along as brothers united by Christ and Christ alone. God bless you!
Ed:
Do you know if audio will be made available online?
I haven’t heard about whether audio will be put online. However, I’m sure that President Fox or Dean Hester would enjoy some correspondence with you. They desire to get along with people that are willing to engage in discussion rather than argument. As long as we aren’t mistakenly labeled as “open theists” or “theological liberals” then we are willing to agree to disagree in Christian love.
Ed:
What do you consider successful; that they were able the resist the calvinist challenge and that this is going to solve there problems.
Make no mistake about it, it will divide and cause many problems for the pastors in that area that hold strongly to the SOVEREIGNTY of GOD in salvation.
One question: If you could what were the questions that Churches need to ask before considering a man for their pastor…
Paul Harris
James,
I am a graduate of Cleark Creek Baptist Bible College. I was not a Calvinist when I started CCBBC. I had no idea what one even was. I went home and told my dad of a student who told me a crazy heresy about Jesus dying for the elect. I did not know that my dad was a reformed Southern Baptist. He never preached the 5 points of Calvinism, but merely the Word of God. I greatly offended him with my comments, and if I can remember, the next day, he gave me about a 15 page document concerning the doctrines of grace. I began to pray and study God’s Word diligently, not just to prove or disprove the 5 points of Calvinism, but to see how God sovereignly works in His creation. And boy did He reveal Himself. There is no doubt in my mind that my God is the Author and the Finisher of my faith.
As far as CCBBC goes, there may have been some changes since I graduated 5 or 6 years ago. While I was there, there was a sense of aggresssion towards those who claimed to be Calvinist. I sensed this from several students as well as some faculty (BUT NOT ALL OF THEM!) I have commented on Mr. Goodman’s comments on another blog, but the fact is this: THis is not just a conference giving CCBBC’s view of Calvinism. Nowhere in the title of the conference do you see “How Clear Creek meets the Calvinistic challenge.” They are teaching all of their students that the doctrines of grace that we lovingly adhere to are completely false. They are not giving a fair and balanced view of Calvinism. I have written the president and several faculty members concerning this conference. I understand that they are not a Calvinistic school and that is fine. But the problem arises for me as an alumni when they have a conference entitled “Meeting the Calvinistic Challenge.” In no way do I view Calvinism as a challenge to any ministry. In fact, it would do tremendous things for the ministries of these young pastors if they would study the Scriptures for themselves and see exactly how our salvation is mongergistic. I am greatly offended that Clear Creek views me as a Calvinist as a challenge to their ministry. I will pray for Clear Creek and I pray for the students that they will not be sponge theologians who simply soak up the theology of their professors. And one last thing. It is shameful to me that they are having this conference when several years ago there were some on staff at CCBBC who were “closet” open theists. They spoke often of Gregory Boyd, John Sanders, Clark Pinnock, and heretics such as these. Yet to this date, there has not been a conference entitled “Meeting the open theist challenge or Meeting the challenge of the emeregent church” Maybe they should think about these conferences next since these are the teachings that some of their staff adheres to.
Adam:
I don’t honestly know many (if any) “Calvinist” ministers who preach “Calvinism,” per se, from the pulpit. All the ones I know seek to preach the Scriptures expositionally. I do find it ironic that you were in college and did not know your father was Reformed. I’m glad you studied the issue for yourself. It seems, with the public statements made in the past and with the titles used for yesterday’s sessions (and the conference itself) that there may indeed be an aggressive posture at Clear Creek in relation to the doctrines of grace. Wonder if Ed can work it out so I can do a presentation on campus regarding Calvinism and Evangelism? After all, I do have a PhD in that area.
The challenge spoken of by Clear Creek was in the area of accusations from several Kentucky Baptist churches that labeled Clear Creek as “open theists” and/or “liberal.” I attended the conference and at no time did any speaker refer to Calvinists in a negative light. The speakers simply presented biblical interpretations that differed from those held by 5-point Calvinists. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. The school does NOT view Calvinists as enemies, and neither do I. And, Dr. Galyon, as far as working out a date for you personally, I don’t have that authority. It is interesting to note, however, that a couple weeks ago we had a Southern Seminary evangelism professor speak in chapel. He wasn’t a challenge to me or to our staff or faculty. So, if you insist on taking our conference personally, go ahead. But please note that Clear Creek does view any Calvinist individual or doctrine as a challenge. Neither do I.
My last comment should have read “Clear Creek does NOT view any Calvinist individual or doctrine as a challenge.” I apologize for the mistake.
Ed:
So, are you saying Calvinists are accusing the faculty of Clear Creek of being open theists and Liberals? If so, why didn’t the sessions touch upon the issues of open theism and Liberalism?
I realize you don’t have any authority to invite me yourself, Ed. If you look at my comment to Adam, note the emoticon. It was said tongue in cheek. Nonetheless, I’m glad to hear you had a SBTS prof speak at Clear Creek recently.
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by the statement, “If you insist on taking our conference personally, go ahead.” I trust you’ve found a friendly atmosphere here, Ed. Have you? Have I attacked Clear Creek in any way? I readily confess I’ve made some statements about what appears to be taking place at Clear Creek and about the perception given by the session titles, etc. I’ve permitted alumni to give their take, just as I’ve permitted you to give yours. That will continue to be the case here at 2WC.
Let me ask you a question, Ed. What was said about the effect of Calvinism upon evangelism? I imagine that is a session I will take personally.
Dr. Galyon,
Let me apologize for seeming to direct that comment to you personally. It was in actuality directed at all visitors to this blog. It seems as though many of your visitors insist upon making Clear Creek’s conference an issue of contention. Not all churches are Calvinistic, just as not all pastors are Calvinist. It helps for churches and pastors to be in theological harmony, wouldn’t you agree? That’s the stance that Tom Ascol takes, at least, and so do I. I also think that by stating CCBBC’s doctrine openly and as fully as possible, that in itself covered the issues of open theism.
I have found a friendly atmosphere here to me personally, but I do sense an underlying bitterness among several former CCBBC graduates. I do appreciate your willingness to be fair in all discussion, but my point that Clear Creek doesn’t view Calvinists as a challenge isn’t being taken seriously. Calvinism as a theology was a challenge to Clear Creek because some of the general public was ignorant of its doctrine – some thought Clear Creek was a Calvinist institution. Now that the issue has been addressed, I challenge EVERYONE to prove otherwise. All those who are Christians are friends of CCBBC – of that I have no doubt. And you, Dr. Galyon, are a friend of mine, too. I’m thankful to have gotten to see your heart over the last few days.
Nothing was said, Dr. Galyon, about the effect of Calvinism upon evangelism. Let me make another point clear yet again – Clear Creek does NOT teach that Calvinists don’t believe in missions/evangelism. If we did, we certainly wouldn’t be using Piper’s book “Let the Nations Be Glad” in our Introduction to Missions class. I think the inclusion of Calvinist literature in our classrooms gives a good indication of our willingness to be inclusive and welcoming of Calvinist brethren.
I don’t mind honest discussion about these topics so long as the discussion includes points that are ACCURATE. I think that’s a fair expectation among mature Christians. And, frankly, I admire the openness and fairness displayed by you, Dr. Galyon, in our discussions thus far. Thank you.
Ed:
Thanks for the clarification. I agree with you wholeheartedly that discussion should include points which are accurate. I trust you will find accuracy here and hope you will stop by often.
Ed
All that I said about clear creek is accurate and what I experienced while at the school. As I have said before I had a great experience at clear creek…met many lifetime friends and professors.
It was not my intention to start controversy but to enlighten people of my experiences.
And I hope and pray that the school has changed.
I began to blog because I was and am concerned about the direction of the school.
They have tried in the past to simply go to a liberal arts school…they have taken the word theology out of there seal; so with this evidence it seems to me like the school is going or already is liberal.
They claim not to be an opentheist school and most of the professors there are NOT opentheist; however when some make statements such as God cannot exhaustively know the future…because they think if it is true that God exhaustively knows the future then man doesn’t really have FREE WILL…then one has to wonder if they are opentheists or not.
Paul Harris
For some reason they feel it necessary to defend God and His judgments.
Paul:
Just a thought… becoming a “Liberal Arts” school is not to be equated with Liberalism. Liberal Arts schools emphasize the humanities and a well-rounded education (art, music, social sciences, philosophy, theology, etc.). I’m not sure why Clear Creek removed ‘theology’ from the seal, but it could (this is just a guess) have something to do with receiving federal student loans (PELL, etc.). That could also be part of the reason for wanting to become a Liberal Arts school.
As far as Open Theism goes, this might be a wonderful opportunity for faculty and students to dig into Church History and Historical Theology. What they would find is that when Christian institutions (congregations, denominations, schools) hold to “Arminian” theology there has always been an eventual capitulation to Socinianism and Universalism. I’m not implying Clear Creek has done that, just stating something about the historical reality experienced by previous generations.
James
Thanks for the thought and you are right about recieving the PELL grant they do receive it.
Would you agree that armenian theology will in some sense hold to some form of opentheism.
To me if it does not then they cannot be ture to ALL the Scriptures…
Paul
Ed,
I would really love to believe what you said about the conference at CCBBC; however, I do not understand why if CCBBC does not consider Calvinism a challenge, they entitled the conference dealing with the challenge of Calvinism. If they do not think calvinism negatively affects evangelism, why was one lecture called “Calvinism’s Impact on the Public Invitation”? And what was the purpose of the lecture that gave five questions every church should ask their pastor but to keep Calvinists out of churches?
Ed, please, do not take these questions as attacks. I am not bitter at CCBBC or you. I obviouly have not heard the lectures yet, but I would like these discrepencies cleared up.
Paul:
I don’t believe it is fair to say that Arminianism holds to Open Theism. On the contrary, historical Arminianism has always affirmed God’s absolute foreknowledge, etc. Open Theism is itself nothing but the ancient heresy of Socinianism.
James
I agree that HISTORICAL Armenians would not be opentheists…and that is my point.
Clear creek are not historical armenians because they believe “ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED” by the way is different from “ETERNAL SECURITY”.
So that would put them in the category of semi-pelagians or pelagians…who would believe in opentheism.
Paul
Bro. Jeremy,
Thanks for your questions. Like I said, I don’t believe the school consider Calvinists a challenge; perhaps they considered the label as a “Calvinist” school a challenge because CCBBC does not teach Calvinist doctrine.
The conference was requested by several churches that, after hiring a Clear Creek graduate, realized that their new pastor was teaching Calvinist doctrine, which the congregation was at odds with. So, in order to help these churches in the future find a good fit for their church, they educated church representatives on some basic Calvinist doctrine and provided direct questions that would help them determine if the candidate was a Calvinist or not.
So, to answer your question in a simple matter, the conference and the sessions were designed to respond to several requests from churches and clarify Clear Creek’s Biblical doctrine publicly.
Love in Christ,
Ed Goodman
The purpose of the five questions was to identify a pastor’s theological beliefs. Some churches don’t WANT Calvinist pastors…and rightly so, since they don’t share the same theology. A Calvinist church should have a Calvinist pastor, and a non-Calvinist church should have a pastor that agrees with its doctrine. Many churches that requested the conference had hired Calvinist pastors that weren’t forthright about theological beliefs they held. So churches have split because of this. And I think we would all agree that church splits are grievous…so to avoid confusion, CCBBC educated pulpit committees on a simple way to determine a pastor’s theological doctrine.
Ed:
I’m going to challenge your comments on one point, and it’s really not so much that I’m challenging you. I’ve read statements from some high profile SBC leaders within the past year about Calvinist ministers not being “forthright” regarding their beliefs with pulpit committees, etc. I don’t think this is generally the case. I think what has happened is that men have made such statements as “I affirm the BFM on the doctrine of election,” “I’m Reformed,” “I affirm the doctrines of grace,” etc., etc., etc., and pulpit committee members have had absolutely no idea what that means or they are just so anxious to get a pastor it doesn’t really matter to them at the time. I say this from personal experience.
Many members of the church I served as pastor in Oklahoma, including several of those who had been on the pulpit committee, accused me of “dishonesty” and so forth about being a “Five-Point Calvinist.” They asked me point-blank about Calvinism in our first meeting together and I told them that I was a 5-Pt. Calvinist. The interim pastor (himself a 5-Pt. Calvinist) spent two-and-half hours discussing the matter with them prior to their interview with me. They had asked him the question initially because one of my references, a very well-known seminary evangelism professor who is a non-Calvinist, told them I was a “Calvinist.” When we came up for a weekend in view of a call, when I first met some church members, they asked, “So, are you really Reformed?” I answered yes, obviously. Nonetheless, I was later accused of “not being forthright” about the matter by many church members. That was not the case at all, to say the least. To be called dishonest, a liar, etc., was very hurtful.
At a previous church I was asked about being Reformed, etc., by the search committee. Though I explained it, and some understood, it would seem not everybody did. When some of the deacons came to me after three years and asked, “Pastor James, are you a Calvinist?”, I answered, “Of course I am! Haven’t you been paying attention these last three years?” I never made it a secret, but then suddenly some were whispering, “See, he’s been involved with this theology and hasn’t told us.” That wasn’t the case whatsoever.
Another point, some non-Calvinist churches do have Calvinist pastors and are very happy with them. A fine example of this is Wedgwood Baptist Church (known for the shooting in 1999). Al Meredith has been there for a couple of decades. You speak of doctrinal agreement. Yes, it is important. The question is, is Calvinism acceptable within the parameters of the BFM? I contend it is. Is non-Calvinism? Not if you really affirm Art. IV.
One last point – Calvinism has not split one church in the SBC. The only thing which has split churches in the SBC is a lack of grace by those involved.
Brother James,
Very good points all the way around…and grace is really the bottom line. Both sides of the debate really need to exhibit more grace. I am glad that you’ve gotten past the hurt of being lied about.
Love in Christ,
Ed Goodman
Ed and James,
I just wanted to say that I appreciated both the spirit and the substance of your dialogue in these last couple posts. I wish our convention was known for that kind of graciousness on this particular issue.
Grace and peace to you, through Christ our Lord.
As a Calvinist, one should not be worried about whether CCBC (or any other organization or individual) is trying to subvert the doctrines. If God is truly Soverign, then he is aware and in control of all situations. If he is not, worrrrrrry!
See this as an opportunity for people to become enlightened to the doctrines. Persecution often promotes / brings growth. Hopefully, as we become enlightened to issues, beliefs we will grow closer to God as we search for the answers. May God get the glory in all things!
I have truly enjoyed reading the previous comments and look forward to more.
Kevin V.
Kevin:
Thanks for dropping by 2WC. You’re right, a Calvinist shouldn’t worry about folks trying to “subvert the doctrines.” God is on His throne. It does provide an opportunity to discuss these matters. My hope is that they will be discussed honestly.
Hope you’ll frequent here often.
James – Thanks for the comments and the welcome.
I know that the more I fought Calvinism the more I became convinced! I haven’t really come across anyone trying to “Subvert”, but I have met many that don’t agree or refuse to even discuss.
I’m all for discussion.
Paul Harris is a complete idiot.